Abe Kim:

Well, Debbie, it’s such an honor to have you here today in our podcast interview. Welcome to the Korean American Perspectives Podcast. 

 

Debbie Shon:

Thank you very much.

 

Abe Kim:

Debbie, let’s get started from the beginning of your life. You are a third-generation Korean American, and I understand you come from a family of many firsts. Your mother was one of the first Korean Americans to graduate from USC and your uncle was the first to win back to back Olympic gold medals in diving. And you yourself are a first of many other things that we’ll talk about later, but let’s start with what it was like growing up in a family like this in the very beginning.

 

Debbie Shon:

Well, first of all, thank you for having me here today. And to share this with whoever’s listening. It was fabulous growing up in Los Angeles with a very interesting family. There’s a lot of music, a lot of sports, a lot of entertainment in a very international area. We lived right on the border to USC. So we, you know, a lot of the USC marching band on the way to the football games, a lot of swimmers and divers who were at meets at USC when my uncle would be judging or have one of the athletes there. So they all came over too. So early on, it was a very magical time for a kid. Anything I wanted to do or thought I wanted to do, I was given leave to explore. My family is very unusual. I always think that. Unusual because there was nobody around like us at the time. My father’s parents or my grandfather was a chemist and a pharmacist who also did missionary work through South America, spoke Spanish, many different languages.

 

Ultimately, my father was born in Cuba and raised in Hawaii. My mother’s side came over from, or my grandfather, came over to study from Korea and was attending Berkeley and Occidental College at the time. Unfortunately, Japan had occupied Korea, so he couldn’t return and changed his name because he felt there was a loss of face that he did not return to fight. So he settled in California where my mother was born and her whole family. Nine children, only three survived. My mom, her sister, and my uncle Dr. Sammy Lee. But being in LA was quite a wonderful time. As I said, the world opened to us. And my mother ensured that anything we wanted to do was that there would be a road forward for us if we wanted to do it. My father died very young so my mother ended up raising us all on her own plus his family. So she had two in-laws to take care of plus her own mother. And she was a remarkable woman. So four kids, I think she did a good job and made sure that she saw, as I said, a path forward. But more importantly, to be realistic on what was possible. I think she said growing up, I always would ask why a fairy tale would end a certain way. Why did Cinderella do this? Or why did Snow White do this? Or I would try to spin it a different way. And I think as I grew older, I would always press the point. Well, why not? Why can’t I do that? Why can’t she do that? Why can’t he do that? So it was. And my mom also instilled in us a sense of community and a commitment to the community and to give back. So with all of that, I’m trying to say it was kind of a magical time. Anything was open to us, anything and everything. And she made sure we saw all of it.

 

Abe Kim:

You mentioned you lived close to the campus of USC. Having lived by, on a campus myself, I know just the dynamism of the community around the campus. Do you feel like you were destined to go to USC as you were growing up? Did you dream about someday, I’m going to go to this university or was there any pressure because your mom was a graduate of USC?

 

Debbie Shon:

Oh, so my mom went to USC. My aunt got her master’s degree there and my uncle got his medical degree there. And we lived literally right a block off of the campus. There was never any pressure. It’s strange people used to say, well, your mom must say you have to go to USC. No, I always knew I was going to go to USC. There was no question about it. I mean, and I applied to other schools. But, you know, push come to shove, I’m going to where my Trojans are. There was no doubt about it. I even got into Harvard and it’s like, no, I’m staying and going to USC. And it was a great time. Unfortunately, too good of a time. Football, basketball, tennis, baseball, I followed them all. It was and we were dominant in many sports at the time.

 

Abe Kim:

And what did you study at USC?

 

Debbie Shon:

I was a dual major in international relations and political science.

 

Abe Kim:

In a recent interview, actually at USC, you were quoted as saying that your education at USC had taught you to have a fearless approach to life. What did you mean by that?

 

Debbie Shon:

Well, you know, when you’re five foot nothing, and you’re maneuvering around the streets of Southern California, you have to pursue things fearlessly. If you want to fiercely, if you want to accomplish what you want to do. As I said early on, my mother said, you can do anything you want to do. Just know that, you know, you’re going to have to work hard to do it. And I always believed that I didn’t have to see somebody else do it. I knew that if I pushed myself, I could accomplish it. Good case in point. I love basketball. Always have followed it since I’m, you know, a kid in the streets playing basketball. Got to see it firsthand at USC, followed my LA Lakers. This is a time of Will Chamberlain. Jerry West. Amazing athletes who loved the sport. And I love the sport.

 

I love the beauty of it. And I knew I wanted to be an agent when I was in law, in college. Got to know some of the players who were really good, brought them home to meet my mom so that she could feed them. She became sort of a rallying point for many of these guys. I would come home and go, what the hell is Bruce doing here? Well, he has a problem. He didn’t get, he’s not going to go for the draft. He injured his knee. And he wanted to ask me as an educator whether or not he should take a crack at the European league or a job at IBM. And I was so astonished that my basketball buddies would come to my mom and ask her her opinion on what they should do. And I was even more surprised by my mother’s response to these guys.

 

Like, you know what, IBM will always be there. You have one shot to play pro ball. And if that means in Europe, go for it. IBM will always be here. So I knew I wanted to be an agent. There were no women, definitely nobody who was Asian American in it. And I sorta tucked that, I filed away, and I knew I had to go to college and I had to go to law school. That’s a sort of separate story, but I finally got my shot at it. Somebody kept me out for three years. I had to appeal for three years. That had more to do with who my law firm represented, more management than player side. But after three years of fighting Isaiah Thomas and the players association, I finally got in. But if you want it hard enough and you stay focused, now you may take a few U-turns here and there. I never let it out of my sight.

 

Abe Kim:

We’ll get to that, your NBA career. And that’s such a fascinating journey, but I wanted to return a little bit about your mother too. I mean, your mother was also a teacher as well, right? A teacher and a social worker. And so she was working with young people already. And I imagine that kind of regular connection with young people made her a magnet. And to draw these young people to your home, I imagine.

 

Debbie Shon:

Well, you’re right. She was, she was both a social work major and a religion major at USC. And you’re right. She was the first Korean American woman to graduate from USC. I think 1939. She always .. and she worked as a social worker in the Asian American community. She was probably the first one to bridge the gap between all the ethnicities within the Asian family. So she was the first one to not only provide services and counseling to Korean Americans because of her language skill. She was born California, but spoke Korean very well and to help communities that were in need. It’s funny how we are all talking about how well we’ve all succeeded here. There are many who come here, as we now see, have needs that are never met, whether they’re mental health, whether they’re just ordinary social services, they never take the step to get, maybe that some kind of cultural bridge that needs to be crossed.

 

But she also went into the Chinese community, the Japanese American community, the Filipino community. And she was the first one. I mean, I remember doing some work in the community years later. They go, you’re Mary’s daughter. You know, she started bringing us Korean kimchi to Filipino gatherings. And the Japanese American knew or the Chinese American knew her. It was an early town time in Los Angeles development when my mother was growing up. So she was able to bridge all of those early on. Later after my father passed away, she found her way back to becoming an educator. And she started in Watts, went over to East LA. They called her the “Pied Piper of East LA”. The kids would see her car and actually run after it. She was that much of a magnet as you say, people just gravitated to her and she knew how to identify kids that just needed that extra push.

 

I mean, I can’t tell you how many times I would come home for college and there’d be all these kids in the backyard and families cooking different things outside. We, our house became sort of a meeting ground for many families, many kids. And decades later after my mom has passed, we still get notes from people saying, y’know, if it wasn’t for your mom, I would not have gone to USC. Or, I knew I wanted to go to USC because your mother and all three kids would end up there, first-time kids who would go to college. Now, their kids were there. And one became a Dean of one of the UC campuses. And it’s a remarkable legacy she leaves behind.

 

Abe Kim:

It sounds like such a tremendous role model you had in your life that not only shaped your life, but to shape the lives of so many other young people that surrounded her. So in terms of just your mom’s civic engagement in the community, and we had talked about earlier, about your parents, actually, generational legacy of being involved in the community and public service. Did that help you shape your major and where you thought you were going to go in life from that early age?

 

Debbie Shon:

You know, I never knew about my grandparents until a couple of years ago. When my sister, who’s a physician in Hawaii, called and said, the Korean council here wants to talk to me about dad’s dad, grandfather, our paternal side. And I said, for what? And she goes, I don’t know, I’ll find out. And apparently my father’s father, my grandfather, who I only got to know for a few years before he died, and my grandmother, believe it or not, were very active in the independence movement, freedom movement, as they called it at some point in Hawaii to support Korea. So our family was given this beautiful medal and all these little gifts from Korea. And apparently he was quite … Someone gave me a book recently from Hawaii that documents all the Koreans who were living in Hawaii, who were very politically active. Interesting enough, both sides were. My father’s parents in Hawaii and my mother’s parents in Los Angeles.

 

I didn’t know any of this until years later. My mother, bless her heart, with all the pressures of raising four kids on her own with literally no help, found her voice. I think she always had it, but realized that there are many injustices that needed to be righted. She used to galvanize the community, community organizations, used to petition on behalf of … You know, Koreans, we have like 50 million churches all over because we get angry at one minister and they go off with another one. So there are all these churches around Southern California that she tried to bring together to mobilize them politically. When she became a teacher, she was one of the largest proponents for public education. In fact, I mean, you talk about how our culture uses, whatever, whatever tools we have to make our case. She made the best, by far, the best kimchi in the world, the best gochujang in the world.

 

And how do I know this? I would come home from college or high school at the time, actually. And I would see once a month, these different cars come by our house. I mean, what the hell is going on? And they would leave $7 on the table and take a jar of kimchi with everybody from Mayor Bradley of Los Angeles to then, she was not U.S. Senator, but Diane Feinstein. I mean, they all would gravitate to our house once or twice. Well, once a month, definitely for kimchi. And then once every other month for jangjorim or whatever it is. And she learned the tools of sharing our culture, some of our cultural foods, and stories to solicit support for something that she believed very strongly in and which I do too which is public education. It is one of the most singular things she can give a child that would propel him or her or whatever into new ventures, new occupations, whatever it may be.

 

So it’s funny, from school board members to members of Congress used to tell me, you know, you always say your mom never complained about anything. That’s all we hear from her. She comes in and she, what was good about my mom is nobody could ever say no to her. She was that strong of an advocate. I just met a gentleman the other day who’s head of a major PR agency. And he’s trying to help me with the Smithsonian thing I hope we’ll talk about later. And he said, I think I’ve met you. And I said, nah, I don’t remember meeting you. And he said, yeah, your last name is very unusual. I haven’t seen Shon spelled that way. I said, because in Korean it’s Sohn and he goes, whatever, cause he’s Japanese American.

 

And he said, I think I met you. So we started talking and he goes, wait a minute, is your mother’s name Mary? I said, yeah. He says, Oh my God. I used to know her before there was a real movement of Asian Pacific Americans. And she would be in a room, and he told me this, said she used her power so well. She knew when to use it, how to use it. And he said, my first meeting with her, he said, I think I peed in my pants, I was so scared. And I said, well, that was my mom. She was quite forceful. She wasn’t much taller than five-three, five-four. But to me, when I was growing up, she was this giant of a woman who commanded the stage well, and I didn’t realize how much of a role model she was until years later during the riots in LA.

 

Another Korean American Angela Oh and I would agree to speak to a bunch of Korean American students and we were talking and they were asking me, oh, you know, Angela’s more community-based organizations, I’m more national politics. So they wanted to have sort of a juxtaposition between the two. And one of the kids said, well, you know, who was your role model growing up? And I said, well, you know, it was nobody really because nobody was a lawyer and nobody definitely wasn’t a trial lawyer. And Angela pushed me and she said, what are you talking about? It’s your mother. She’s all of our role model. Somebody who could stand up in front of small or large crowds and with a very forceful, but very compelling way of articulating what the vision is and what the needs are. And that was my mom. And then she would hound you if you didn’t do what she wanted you to do. So God bless her. She was quite a gal.

 

Abe Kim:

Nothing worse than the wrath of a Korean mother, right? So she was using her cultural soft power, right? So after USC, you went to Georgetown law school and you came to Washington DC. I imagine you realized that someday you would end up in Washington DC. And I imagine it was intentional that you chose Georgetown for your law education.

 

Debbie Shon:

Yeah, that’s absolutely true. I wanted to go to law school only because I wanted to understand the system that I wanted to change. I knew early on, I think by the age of 12 that I wanted to do something in politics. I thought that it was a way for people to change the dynamic, change the narrative, and change legislation that would open doors rather than close them. So when I got the opportunity, first thing I did was get a job on the Hill. I worked for the founder and Dean of the Congressional Black Caucus who taught me a great deal. Everything from how to argue without losing your temper, how to avoid those who have denied people racial justice, and look it, back then there weren’t many people of color on the Hill, so God bless them too.

 

And it was a great training ground. In fact, I really didn’t want to be a lawyer after that. I wanted to stick around and I did. I became a lobbyist for a while until somebody .. I was at a big conference for women and I saw in the background, somebody was in the background watching, as I spoke to this group of women. And she came up to me later and said, I want you to ride with me to the airport. You guys have arranged a car to take me to the airport. I want to talk to you. Sure. The ride all the way to the airport, this extraordinary woman sat there and told me how she envisioned the next generation of Asian American women going into politics. And she thought I had the ability to command the room like that, like I saw her do. 

 

And that was one of the biggest compliments anybody could ever give me and that person was Congresswoman Patsy Mink, the first woman of color to be elected to the House of Representatives. So Patsy kept in touch and kept saying, you know, the one thing you’re lacking though, is getting that checkmark of being in a profession where people trust you. That you’re not just running for office straight out of whatever and put some definition and substance behind you before you actually run. And she goes, as much as you don’t want to do it, go practice law. And that’s what I did. And sometimes you take a, what I call, I thought was a detour. And I thought it served me well and I stayed in it for a while.

 

Abe Kim:

And in your law career, you became the first Asian American woman to make partner in a major law firm. And then you went on as well to become first Korean Asian American in the C-suite at a Fortune 200 company as well, the integrated steel company. And what were those experiences like? Did you feel like you were prepared to take, I mean, what was it like going through that experience? Being the first is, being a pioneer, is often a lonely experience and very difficult and you face all kinds of challenges. What were some of the important lessons you learned in that journey of yours?

 

Debbie Shon:

I didn’t know it until after the fact until somebody told me I was the first Asian American in the C-suite and the company was United States Steel. It was then a 110-year-old, iconic brand in America. And they made me vice president, I think, because of that reason. They thought this is something we want to do and I’m very grateful that they gave me that opportunity. And it combined both law with, again, politics. I was head of global public policy for them. We accomplished a lot in a very short period of time in law. It was something that just came naturally. I thought it was a detour. I didn’t think I was going to stay in it very long.

 

It’s one of those things that’s probably in other people’s DNA, you’re in something and you’re doing well. And you know, they keep telling you, well, you … Shortest track to partnership we’ve ever seen. You’re building like crazy, you know, you’re terrific, blah, blah. But it was also at the epicenter of all democratic politics at the time as well. One of the name partners was the Democratic National Committee chair. Throughout the building, there were these major political power people, female and male. So it was a place that I felt comfortable. That doesn’t mean that, you know, moving up the corporate ladder within a law firm or in a corporate environment doesn’t have its challenges. I remember having to have conversations about why I wouldn’t take meetings in a certain location much to the chagrin of my partners who had set up major meetings with big CEOs of financial institutions. And when I explain why, it’s funny how some never understood the reluctance of a third-generation Korean American who would not go into one of the previously restricted private clubs in Los Angeles.

 

When I tried to explain how it affected my uncle who was training for the Olympic games many, many, many years ago before I was even born. How, when he was training to dive, he had to wait to use the public pools the day before they were going to drain the pool. That was the only time they let people of color in before they were going to drain the pool. Likewise, some of the other athletic clubs in Los Angeles wouldn’t let him through the door, even as he was training for the United States Olympic team. So there were reasons why I chose not to darken those doors to this day. Didn’t get it. A lot of people didn’t get it. A lot of people thought it was time to move on. You know, well, we’ve got some Asian Americans in here. I thought good, good for them, but I’m not one of them.

 

Give me this in my life. It’s something I morally cannot do. I’m a great lawyer, you know, great with clients, but I will not go there for lunch. That’s not a big deal. So yes, there were challenges whether it’s in a courtroom, whether it’s opposing counsel looking at a five foot nothing. I mean, I walk into a courtroom and I looked like something somebody tears out of a magazine of what you’re supposed to look like, right? A little bow tie and a little suit, little Asian woman walking in. And I remember the smirks and looks, sort of laughter about this was going to be opposing counsel. One of them was actually a professor of mine, a former professor of mine. And he was doing something during argument. And I asked the court for a five minute break. And I said, I’d like to speak to opposing counsel outside for a moment, took him out in the hallway. And I just used many profanities and told him that if he didn’t cut this line of insulting remarks under his breath, that I would meet him afterwards. And then we could do it fist to cuff if you wanted to, which embarrassed him. So there are many of those. I don’t flinch. I know where I belong. I don’t have to be told I deserve to be there. I do deserve to be there. And anybody who crosses me, I will fight it. I started in elementary school. No one’s going to tell my sister, you know, she’s some derogatory term. I would meet people after school and embarrass them that I’m five foot nothing. And I would take them on. I wasn’t raised to take anybody’s bullshit. So it wasn’t going to happen in a courtroom. It wasn’t going to happen on the streets. It’s still to this day, I have a Kevlar vest if I need it. I’ll do what I have to do.

 

Abe Kim:

It sounds like, again, reflecting on perhaps the important narratives your mom told you when you were growing up or just the role models around you. I’m sure your uncle and others have really instilled a really strong sense of confidence in yourself and that you have every right to be in every room that you’re present in.

 

Debbie Shon:

Right. And I think as a third generation, it’s something that .. it kind of upsets me to this day that I see first and second and third and fourth generations who feel the need to justify the need to ask for permission. We’re way beyond that. We’ve been here too long. We’ve done too much. We are Americans. So maybe that’s the difference in terms of upbringing. I also think the losing of a father early in my life set me on a course where I knew nobody was going to come save me. I was going to have to do it myself if I wanted to get it done. Now, granted, I used my mom a lot early on because she was, I mean, believe it or not, I thought she was this towering woman later in life. I’d say, god mom, why did I always think that you could go in there and just beat them up? And quite frankly, she did most of the time. So, she commanded the respect of everybody, which, whether it was some thug on the street, some reason back then they didn’t mess with her. And we, you know, for a while, those days that we lived on USC campus were kind of dodgy days later on, but nobody touched us. Nobody touched our property. Nobody touched my mom. She called them out, you know, and they respected that.

 

Abe Kim:

I’d love to return back to a topic we talked about earlier, which is your career in the NBA as an agent. And you mentioned that tremendous athletes like Isaiah Thomas and others had, really lobbied for you to become a registered agent. How did that change your life? After you became an agent? I mean, what does it mean to be an agent first of all, and, and second, how did it shape your career after that?

 

Debbie Shon:

Well, remember hearkening back to my days at USC, I planted seeds in the minds of some of the best athletes. For one brief shining moment, USC was number one in the country way back when. I used to shoot baskets, like at two o’clock in the morning with guys just to bend their ear, how I could help them at USC? Did they need help in classes? Do they need help getting girlfriends, whatever it is. I wanted to get to know them. And it worked. Graduations, they would invite their moms. And they’d all be at my mom’s house where we’d have barbecues. And it was a great opportunity for me to make those connections. They knew I was going to go to law school. So we kept in touch and many of them were very, very good. Isaiah actually tried to keep me out.

 

He kept me out for three years. Yeah, three years.

 

And it was because my law firm represented the LA Clippers. And when the NBA allowed Donald Sterling to bring the Clippers from San Diego up to LA, the only condition was that my law partner, Alan Rothenberg, would be president of the LA Clippers. Another one of my partners, Arn Tellem, became the general counsel to the NBA players association. That was much too cozy on the management side. Alan was at a very young age, also the general counsel to the Los Angeles Lakers. So I had to explain, I touched none of that. I did not represent Donald Sterling. I mean, I got tickets to the games, but it took me three years. And so by that time, when I ran back to a lot of the USC players I knew, and a couple of the other ones, they already had their agents.

 

They were well on their way to doing well. The other is, they told me, I wish you told me where you were going to go, which law firm you were going to join because there wouldn’t be .. it would be a cold day in hell before I signed with your law firm. They’ve been on the other side of negotiations. I went, damn, you know? So it was an opportunity to see some of my good buddies do very, very well in the NBA. They’re still very good friends to this day. I got to know others along the way, just from being an ally and being with the law firm. Never got to represent that one single guy that would go all the way. I got very close once. I think I’m very close again, coming up. I’m hopeful, you know, that this next fourth-, fifth-generation Korean American will be, you know, we’ll find our Jeremy Lin plus plus. But even watching him ascend in the NBA, I actually wrote a letter to the LA Times editors about how it was almost like I could actually die happy that I could see a moment when little kids could run up and down with an Asian American’s name on their chest and talk about an NBA game where the country was so enthralled with Linsanity.

 

But anyway, for another day, we’ll get there.

 

Abe Kim:

So do you still root for LA Lakers and USC? I imagine football, but USC basketball as well.

 

Debbie Shon:

Yeah, oh of course. Of course I’ve been following the Lakers since I told you, since I was a kid. Even my poor mom, you know, made her, she was a big fan. She had .. one of her student’s parents owned a candy factory and she had for Christmas made a six-foot tall candy cane so I could take it to one of the games and give it to Will Chamberlain. So yeah. Oh yeah. Watch every game. LeBron is my man. I think he, more than just an athlete, he is a fine human being. And because of him, we’re at this inflection point in history where, you know, social justice, racial justice, we’re not a moment. This is going to be a real movement with people like that behind it. So I’m very proud to be a Laker fan. I’m very proud to watch these players be more than just athletes,

 

Abe Kim:

Right. Using their platform for good right? And positive change so they have a tremendous influence over a lot of people, right? And so I want to move forward in your career. And another career highlight, as to .. you were invited to serve as, in a senior political role at the U.S. Trade Representative’s office. You became the assistant trade representative serving under ambassador Mickey Kantor during the President Clinton administration. But tell me about that journey, how you got there and really, I mean, not only how you got there, but, you know, we can talk about like you were .. the timing was wonderful because he was such an important part in the world global trade regime as well when you served during this period but first how’d you get there?

 

Debbie Shon:

Well, like I told you, I was very happy that the firm I chose to start my career and become a partner was at the epicenter of not only sports, but also politics. Chuck Manatt was a named partner and he was chairman of the Democratic National Committee. Mickey was a powerful person within the party having been an advisor to Mondale. There were younger ones coming up the ranks who were very, very well positioned within the party. I was just loving being a trial lawyer. And I just remember one day walking in and asked, screaming at somebody about why my war room was being put apart. They were moving all my documents out and I needed that war room for a trial. And Mickey came by and said I’m going to need that war room for about a year.

 

Well, you have a trial coming up I don’t know about? And he goes, no, no, no, no. The next president of the United States is going to be in there. I go, well, who’s that? And he told me, this guy from Arkansas, governor from Arkansas, was going to be the next president of the United States. And he said, I, in fact, I want you to introduce them to the Asian American community or host a fundraiser, meet his wife, Hillary. And you’re going to love him, Debbie, you’re going to love these people. And I go, I don’t know, Mickey, if the governor of Arkansas is going to be president of the United States and he said, look it, he says, where are you going? I said, I have to go to Orange County for one of your clients and get a temporary restraining order. So he said, I’ll drive you.

 

And that’s like a two-hour drive during rush hour. I go, you’re going to drive me? He goes, yeah, get in the car, I’m going to drive you. And the whole way down, he talked about this man’s vision, this incredible mind, once-in-a-generation mind, amazing strategists, this Bill Clinton. And he talked about Hillary, about how extraordinary she was. And he said, when you get back, I’d like you to meet them. I’d like you to sponsor some events in the women’s community and the Asian Pacific American community, introduce them to Los Angeles. And that began, sort of this, if you’ve ever met former president Clinton and former secretary, Hillary Clinton, the most amazing people by far. As Mickey said, once-in-a-generation mind, is absolutely correct. The amount of the volume of information he can digest and understand, and yet take it to another level was just amazing.

 

So I got a call, things were going well in the campaign. Mickey became the national campaign manager and I was the lucky one. I got the call. You know, we all need an opportunity in our life for a door to open so you could walk through it. Sometimes you have to kick the door down. Sometimes you move around it. Sometimes in your life, somebody actually opens that door for you without conditions, without any expectation. They just want to do you the opportunity, give you the opportunity to see what they’ve seen. And for as long as I live, I will be grateful to Mickey Kantor giving me that opportunity to sit at a table to watch. Remember, we were in the wilderness for 12 years until Bill Clinton won the presidency and to watch a new government be formed by this young man and his vice president, Al Gore.

 

And these amazing minds that came in from all over. Once in a lifetime for somebody like me, a third generation Korean American sitting at that table, watching a government being formed. How we were going to argue, how we were going to support one another. It was an extraordinary opportunity that is probably the best of my life. I mean, back then, internet was just coming on. I was, at one point, I had a beeper. I had three cell phones because, you know, sometimes I was the duty officer picking up the phone when it was the president or somebody else that needed to talk to Mickey. So it was, and Mickey said, he said, stay in the trade office with me. I had an opportunity to go to another department because of my work in education. He said, we’re going to do a hell of a lot of good things here.

 

And sure enough, we were at the epicenter of everything; creation of World Trade Organization, the completion of NAFTA, the two side agreements on labor and environmental standards, the opening of Latin America through the Summit of the Americas, the amazing work we did with APEC and, you know, throughout the Asia-Pacific region. So it was an amazing opportunity. I, and my mom was so proud. She was .. especially when the president of South Korea showed up and I flew her out and said, Mom, you gotta come to this luncheon and was at the state department. And it was a very heady time. It was wonderful. I wish all of us could have that opportunity to see how government should work, how things can get done, how there wasn’t any of this, well, let’s find me an Asian in the room, or we need that. We were already there and the ability to speak your mind without retribution, it was remarkable.

 

Abe Kim:

I mean, being a senior political representative for the United States around the world, I’m curious. I’m sure when you walked into the room, there were .. people were curious about you as well. Who is this, you know, Asian woman representing the most powerful country in the world, negotiating trade agreements? Did you have any kind of, were there, I’m sure there’s some interesting stories around that as well?

 

Debbie Shon:

Oh yeah, it was. It was interesting. But I think our allies around the world embraced the fact that this was a real change in how the administration was going to be, dealing with international issues. Bill Clinton had thought about these things for decades, read everything he could on it, spoke with all the experts around the world. There was nothing left sort of open, but it was interesting to watch. And I have to thank Mickey again. He always introduced me as his former law partner, which automatically meant that we were friends, that there was a channel. What people don’t realize too, usually, is a cabinet member’s relationship with the president is very important. And Mickey being the former campaign manager and very close to both of them, both Clintons, meant that whatever Mickey was saying was actually what the president wanted him to say.

 

So there were times it was very nice for me being a Korean American in there. I was invited to Korea, forged very good relationships with the trade minister from South Korea. To this day, we’re very good friends. I visited the Blue House. They had a dinner for me. It was extraordinary with the Seoul Symphony playing. I mean, it was .. literally looking around going, who’s coming for dinner? It’s the United States of America. And we hold when we go abroad, all the weight and interest and power of our country, but I’m also mindful we’re guests in other people’s countries as well. So I was able to become pretty good at the diplomatic side of it, on how to sort of dial down the litigation side of me and be more of a listener, and not take things personally when there was a disagreement, amongst our allies and .. or, on a position.

 

I’ve, for example, I was asked to speak to the Korean trade minister about our exports of a certain agriculture product to Korea. And I remember this very well, Mickey and others were sitting around a big table and they couldn’t understand why Korea, a very, very strong ally of the United States would not allow a small amount of California rice into their market. And in fact, what we wanted to ship in was less than the amount that would spoil in the Korean market in silos. So, you know, people were going economically, it makes no sense. Politically, it makes no sense for us because we’re so close. Why won’t Korea allow that to be part of the deal on opening up trade under this world trade organization? And I think in the room, there was a discussion on the politics from the Korean side. A country that had been cut in half by other powers. That at the 38th parallel, there are still armed guards watching over that border. And how the politician sitting in Korea would have to be able to say to their people in the event of war, we will feed you. And by opening the door to competition, perhaps not then, now it’s opening but back then it wasn’t the right time. And our administration said, fine, let it go. So I was very proud of our administration.

 

Abe Kim:

Do you feel like, perhaps, just your experience and being, and knowing and understanding Korea, and, growing up Korean, do you think that helped, having your voice at the table, really helped, perhaps shape, a nuanced U.S. approach to countries like Korea? That you feel like you were, you really helped in addition to obviously, there’s the principles. But you, because of your presence, you’re able to shape policy because of your sensitivities to a lot of different experiences?

 

Debbie Shon:

I think anybody from a different background, whether you’re male or female, we bring our life experiences and those that we hold from our grandparents. It’s remarkable how much those little stories that are told over tea or .. I used to go visit my grandmother in her room and let her tell me about stories when she came here and how she survived. And then she would tell me stories about Korea, how those stories all sort of come in and shape your view of a country I know very little about to be very honest. The first time I visited Korea was during the Olympic games in 1988, I had a client who was competing then. Greg Louganis, who actually won. But you’re right, it does shape it. It allows us to be part of that conversation. It allows others to be more sensitive to nuances that they may not think of, particularly as sitting on the other side of a table of a very dear ally. And then for me to speak with the trade minister, speaking about how much American blood was also spilled on Korean soil. It was something I could say with objectivity as well as passionately to him.

 

Abe Kim:

Yeah. So, you know, we’ve covered the gamut of your amazing career. I mean, really the lifetime of maybe three or four individuals. You know, given your senior political role, you’re top of your law firm, top of your corporate career and we haven’t even touched your work at the Smithsonian. But just reflecting back, especially as many of our listeners are young people and they’re working in one of these different areas. How do you mentor young people when they share about their own careers and their own .. Like, they go, Debbie, what are some of those key wisdoms that you pass onto young people when they’re thinking about their own career development as an Asian American in the United States today?

 

Debbie Shon:

I think it’s all individual, depending on who the individual is. I’ve taught law school for 10 years and I’ve mentored a lot of young lawyers throughout my career. A lot of Asian American lawyers would find me somehow or another and say, you know, I want to do what you did. Like what does that mean? I want to be able to do international stuff. Like, well, you know, have you done, have you taken classes? Have you, you know, what drives you to this? Watching my niece and nephew’s generation, the fourth generation, and then some of the younger ones who are the fifth generation, I think. But my niece and nephew generation, I’m so happy to see them be able to stand back and know what drives them, where they find most satisfaction in their soul. Not what drives them into a Mercedes-Benz dealership, you know? To compete economically with the kid next door or to vacation like the guy next door.

 

What makes you happy in your daily life in terms of what you can do, what you can produce or how you do it. And I’m so grateful that my niece and nephew have found their voice, have found their way. I remember being a counselor, going to a counselor once, and they kept putting me in math and science classes in junior high school and high school. It’s like, don’t you get it? I hate this stuff. Give me more history, give me politics. I want to be on the debate team. And, you know, being non-Asian, they looked at me like, no, no, no, you guys are good at math and science. I go, no, no, no, no. I’m not good at math and science. And I know it. I feel great when I’m debating, I want to do something in politics. I want to change the tax code, I want.

 

So what I tell young Asian Americans is first, find out what makes you feel good about being you. There’s a great sociologist who passed away and Joseph Campbell, who wrote a number of books about following your bliss and everything else falls into place. Good example. One of my law partners, who .. we shared a secretary, we were right next to each other, and I would hear him throw stuff against the wall. He hated what he was doing. He was good at it, he hated it. And yet, you know, and he’s, I said, well, you, look. At the end of the day, you want to be an agent. You love this stuff. You love sports. That’s all you ever talk about. You read that in the bathroom, you know. You don’t care about case precedent. Why don’t you quit and go do that. You’re a partner. You don’t need to do anything more.

 

Oh, no. I don’t think I could do that. You know, but, but, but why? You know, you love that. And, you know, I said, your wife’s a brilliant lawyer too. You know, she’ll support you on this. He became the biggest sports agent ever because he found, he followed his bliss. He followed what makes him happy. And then if it happens to be in law or something else, help me, let me open doors for you. Let me introduce you to, you know, you want to do something in sports. You want to do something. And I mean, I’ve lived long enough where I know enough people, one or two phone calls. I can get you an interview, wherever it may be. If you, your grades are good, blah, blah, blah. So, I think that the long way of saying, follow your bliss, and if that draws you to law or politics, give me a call. I’ve done that for more people than I can shake a fist at. And they’re not all Asian American. Whoever needs a handout, somebody gave me that door opening, right? If I can do that, great.

 

Abe Kim:

Why didn’t you run for politics?

 

Debbie Shon:

Yeah. Another detour. Very close, and for the first time in my life, I let somebody tell me it wasn’t my time yet. And I had, it was a small race. It was assembly district bordering Koreatown in LA. I could have done this very easily. And I chose to accept the powers that be. Deliberations that somebody else had checked all the boxes first, and had done his time before doing many different things in the party before I had. So, it’s a long way of saying I missed my window. It’s funny, at this late stage in my life, somebody just asked me, you know, you feel so passionately about what we’re missing in the political conversation now, is it still too late for you to go? Is it too late for you to jump in? And no, no, it’s not really late, but I think there’s so many younger people who have more runway. Who could achieve much more than somebody like me, sort of, jumping in and just taking a seat for a couple of terms.

 

Not that I would push it back, but it’s not something that I’m that anxious of doing right now. I’d rather help the next generation plot along. Be bold about things and not, not be told it’s not your time. And I always talk about pushing the envelope, push the envelope. We, you got nothing to lose now. So particularly now we, we don’t have much time in this window to take advantage of having eyes and ears and support. So you’re probably going to ask me, what’s the Smithsonian doing about all this right now? Very good. Yeah. You know, you’re a very good .. Council of Korean Americans should be very happy that you’re guiding this process. You’ve done a tremendous job.

 

But I joined the Smithsonian because a good friend of my mother’s and who became a good friend of mine in politics, Irene Hirano Inouye, asked me to join the board of the Smithsonian Asian Pacific American Center. And Irene and I go way back. I could tell you many stories about us and Hollywood and politics, but this time she called and she had just lost Senator Inouye. She was completing another term as chair of this thing at the Smithsonian. I said, you know, Irene, I hate to tell you this. I didn’t even know there was this thing at the Smithsonian. You know, love to know about, more about it. So she said, I really need you on the board. I’ll explain it to you later. Okay. I had my first board meeting and I thought, well, you know, I just found out there’s nothing permanent in the Smithsonian that honors our struggles or our contributions to the American story. And the board said, well, you know, that’s not on our agenda.

 

I said, well, I’m putting it on the agenda. People growing up in America need to see, at least some people need to see, what’s possible. Sometimes that’s in the form of somebody who looks like them, somebody who talks like them, maybe somebody from their own neighborhood. And I think part of this is Hollywood. I think it’s part of literature. I think it’s sad when I was growing up, Asian American studies were starting to flourish throughout. That’s not the case anymore. So I threw down the gauntlet and I said, we’re going to, we’re going to go for a museum. Everybody else says we gotta have ours. And I wanted it to be done in a way that not only honors our past, but make it contemporary. Make it to a point where any kid, no matter where they’re from, can walk through the door and understand the American story through our eyes, through our stories.

 

So it’s living, it’s contemporary, it’s relevant. And we’ve had, we got permission to have a gallery there. Now is this groundswell. You have people darting all over, which is great. We did great in the last election. We still have 29% voting the wrong way, which I don’t understand. But more people going out to vote. Great. That’s something I’ve been a big proponent of. And by the way, it’s taken a long time. I took a lot of hits in our own community. It was like, you know, that’s not for us. We want to stay local. And now everybody understands the power of Washington. They understand what, the power of the White House. So you’ll see in the next week or so some things that the Smithsonian’s planning in terms of .. it’s the only place that I know of that everybody’s already under the tent.

 

We have Latinos, the women, the African Americans, and now the Asian Pacific Americans, the Native Americans, we’re all under one tent. We share information, we share collections. We support one another’s cultures, introspection, also our outward outreach. What better vehicle to bring everybody in to talk about the hard stuff. I mean, it’s one thing to get something going on with federal legislation on hate crime. I’m all for that. How do you change somebody’s heart? You heard that our president said that too. It’s one thing to change the law. How do we change people’s hearts? And that’s, part of it is confronting our own racist past and our racist present. So it sounds a little bit like I’m preaching again, but it’s something that I’m very passionate about. And if we can do this right, if we can start this dialogue and one that we confront our own, and we got, we have our own, our own prejudices. Once we confront those together, I think is the path forward, a sustainable path forward to a better America. And one that is inclusive, that recognizes and appreciates our differences and doesn’t exclude or minimize or marginalize.

 

Abe Kim:

So what .. given your work at the Smithsonian, what’s one story about the Asian American Pacific Islander community that you think that every American should know about that we, the general public, is not aware of that would help to shape mainstream America’s view in an accurate way of the Asian American Pacific Islander community?

 

Debbie Shon:

Oh, that’s hard. Our history is so long here and how I, how we are now explaining it to people. It’s, we’re part of the fabric of America. Our history is American history. It’s one thing to look at a Ming vase sitting there nicely in a protective little crate, whatever the hell they do, display unit. I’m talking about something relevant so that somebody can walk through. Any person can walk through. Even our own people can walk through and get a sense of what it’s been like to live as an Asian America in, in America contemporarily. So there’s not one factoid that I would say other than our contributions are many, whether it’s medicine, sports, education, chemistry, avionics, anything. I mean, our contributions are many, but it is more than that. I think there should be a recognition of the struggles that got us here. I mean, your children should know that this did not happen overnight, that you can walk in and vote. It is not happen overnight, that you can buy property. In the recent past, in the 1960s, you could not marry outside your race. My uncle won two gold medals, was a medical doctor, a captain in the U S army. And when he came back from the ‘52 Olympic games, ‘48, ‘50, ‘52 games, he couldn’t buy property, a home for his new family in Orange County, California.

 

So there’s, there should be a recognition of appreciation for those who gone before you, because you stand on those shoulders. Whether it’s the Chinese who came here to build a railroad or the Japanese American who farmed most of the lands that are plentiful now in California, there should be an understanding of all of that packaged, that this is part of America. This is part of the American story. And we should be elevated by all of this and our recognition that we’re not foreign. We are American.

 

Abe Kim:

It sounds like you’re a proponent of Congresswoman Grace Meng’s bill to promote Asian American history in our school systems.

 

Debbie Shon:

Yeah, isn’t that sad that after all these years, when we had great American, Asian American studies programs that came out of UCLA and Berkeley and other places, most of those have been closed down and that you can’t read and you have to Google things to figure out who Vincent Chin was, or Korematsu. Nobody, I mean, George Takei, the Star Trek actor who I love once said recently, he said, Debbie, hurry. You know, a lot of us are not going to be around much longer. We got to do this now. There’s a sense of urgency about this, at least for me. I’d like to be able to jog through this. Whatever this space is within the Smithsonian that will be there for generations to come, that we all feel proud of, that we all have an ownership in, which means we’re all gonna have to pony up and make sure that collectively all of our voices are heard. Our stories are heard and it’s through our own lenses that this can be done now with great technologies. It could just be an amazing venue that we can all come to.

 

Abe Kim:

So what’s the plan here? Is it within the next five years or ten years that a museum like the African American museum to be set up?

 

Debbie Shon:

Well, so the African American museum took 25 years and $900 million to build. I will tell you with the new change in leadership at the Smithsonian under Lonnie Bunch, who oversaw all of the African American museum’s development design and building, we have a great advocate and a great ally. I’m hopeful that we will have a path toward this permanent structure. We already have this gallery starting. We need to see this as an opportunity to come together and to demonstrate that we can collectively embrace this and make it something that we’re all proud of. Both the contributions, as well as the struggle part. And once that all sort of comes together in this, I think that the amazing storytellers we now have in our community. Look, we’re already up for Academy Awards and directing and acting and everything else. I think we will have something that will endure, will become timeless. And we’ll all be very proud of.

 

Abe Kim:

Well, we’re coming to the end of our interview. I have two final questions for you. One is, this is your moment to give a challenge to our community, to the Korean American community, especially the leaders in it. Love to get your perspective. If you could give them a call to action, what would that be?

 

Debbie Shon:

It sounds trite, you know, go big or go home. You know, ladies and gentlemen, stop asking for peanuts. We should ask for the whole pie. You know, we keep saying, oh, well, we just want enough to, like, voter registration. We want enough to do studies. It’s not one. It’s not, it’s, they’re not exclusive propositions. We should do all of it. And I think a giant step toward all of this and, you know, look, there are many brands now that are coming out saying, what can we do? Cause we, they know that the power of our pocket book and now with the ballots, let’s think large, let’s think big. Let’s think of how all of this can come together. Together, we have a lot of voices seeking space, seeking support, which is all good, but it’s confusing a lot of people. People who aren’t Asian American, people who are Asian American, where do we put our money?

 

Where do we put our time and effort? We can do all of it. There should be a galvanizing force that brings us all together. Not just Korean Americans, not just Chinese Americans, not just Samoan, not Fujian. We all have to come together. Those and I dare say, I think it, part of the conversation should be the sort of reckoning that we all have with all other Americans so that the American experiment can flourish. Democracy can flourish. And I think once we all face those, the past, we’ll be able to all go together well into the future. I know that sounds sort of ..

 

Abe Kim:

No, it sounds wonderful. No, it sounds very, very appropriate for our time today. And my final question that I ask all of our interviewees is if you could speak to the 18-year-old Debbie, what would you advise her?

 

Debbie Shon:

That’s a good question. If I was to talk, I would actually go back even earlier in my life. And again, it hearkens back to the fact that I didn’t think anybody was going to save me. So I had to push alone and push hard myself and take whatever swipes would come. I would say, I would say that don’t take everything so personally. Koreans have, or at least the Koreans I know, we all have sort of fiery tempers that get triggered pretty easily. Me, I, for one have a very bad temper. I have a list of people who have been mean to me. I’ve had that since grade school, I keep adding names. I wouldn’t take things so personally and let go of a lot that doesn’t need adjusting or fixing, but keep your eye on the overall objective of your vision. And if you trust that, everything becomes white noise. If you let somebody else’s negativity, swipe, prejudice, lie, fabrication, whatever it may be, that’s coming at you too personally, it takes you off track from what your vision is, what your own belief in you is. So I spent too many hours trying to figure out how to get even, or get justice in some other fashion when if I just stayed on track, stayed focused on what I wanted to accomplish, and as I’ve said all along, just having belief in myself alone, I think I could have accomplished a lot more.

 

Abe Kim:

Well, thank you, Debbie, for sharing your life with us and your wisdom and your experience. It was a tremendous hour together and such a fascinating life journey. And so glad that you could share that with our audience today. So thank you very much for joining us today.

 

Debbie Shon:

Thank you very much.