Abraham Kim
Today we’re pleased to interview Jeanie Chang, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Founder of Your Change Provide, a therapeutic practice centered on authentic self-care and wellness. She is passionate about serving individuals, couples, and families by promoting a culturally competent approach to family, community, and work life. I have a fascinating discussion with Jeanie as we begin the interview talking about her 33 year journey to find her final career calling in life.

As a part of this conversation, we go deep on tough issues that many Korean American families are struggling with today: depression, trauma, parent-teenager communication and yes, even suicide. If you have teenagers in your house or will soon have teenage kids, this is an important episode for you. Jeannie shares many insights about understanding the power of depression, how do you identify if your child is suicidal, and how to speak to them about it. We also talk about how tragedy and death in our schools and our communities could have an impact on the teenage mind. Jeanie introduces the concept of secondary trauma, or the hidden trauma, that could have unseen negative impact on our kids.Finally, she gives tips on how to better communicate with teenage boys and girls, and yes, they communicate very differently.

This episode is packed with rich insights and life hacks to navigate the challenges of being a parent. But, even if you are not a teenage parent, there are plenty of nuggets of wisdom about taking care of our mental health. Actually our podcast interview with Jeanie went a bit long so we divided our discussion into two episodes. This show will cover the first half and next week we will release the second half.
We have a lot to cover, so let’s go right into the interview.

Abraham Kim
Welcome to the Korean American Perspectives. We’re so thrilled to have Jeanie Chang with us. Jeanie is a recent member of CKA, but also professionally, she’s a licensed marriage and family therapist and a certified clinical trauma professional. She’s been treating children, adolescents, families on issues related to anxiety and depression but also on mindfulness, hope to get into some of that today. Her background is rich. She’s originally trained as a journalist and then went to business school and did marketing and then she went into her clinical work today. And I hope to get into a lot of this interesting, rich, nuanced background of hers. So I want to welcome Jeanie, welcome!

Jeanie Chang
Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. I have a lot to share.

Abraham Kim
Well, Jeanie, let’s start off from the beginning. Tell me about your childhood and how you came to the United States and how your parents immigrated here.

Jeanie Chang
Yeah. So I am, yes, a second generation Korean American. My parents came shortly after they had me, so I was born in Seoul and I was probably, what, I think four or five months old, so I was a baby. They said it was actually a miserable trip cause I was crying the whole time. But they actually delayed their immigration to the U.S. Because of my birth. So as they like to say, you were a honeymoon baby, a little TMI. So they delayed their arrival here and my dad started his residency as a neurologist, so we came in 1974. So pretty much definitely, I was born in Seoul but I was almost nearly raised here, but I will say I was not a U.S. citizen until I was in eighth grade. So I actually had a whole day of it. That was kind of fun becoming a U.S. Citizen, skipping a day in school to go to the U.S. embassy in Philadelphia and getting my whole citizenship. I do remember that, and I talked about that at school.

Abraham Kim
Well great. You went to Ohio originally and then you grew up and then you moved to …

Jeanie Chang
Wilmington, Delaware, right outside of Philadelphia. Yeah. So I don’t know how they ended up in Ohio. I’ve actually never asked my dad, so I don’t know.

Abraham Kim
So how was it growing up in Delaware. Were you the only Korean American family in the area?

Jeanie Chang
Very good question. So we were not the only Korean Americans but we are one of very few. So a lot of the people I grew up with were Caucasian. So, I was that token Asian many times, right. In camps or after school activities. But I did grow up in the Korean American church. So that is probably where I got a lot of the cultural feeding of the soul, if that makes sense. But one of the things, of course, the typical upbringing where you struggle being the only Asian or the only Korean. so yeah, Wilmington, Delaware was pretty much a very white area, so I did stand out.

Abraham Kim
How would you say your parents have shaped your life? If you as an adult, are you, do you find yourself becoming more like your parents?

Jeanie Chang
So to answer that, you know when you’re growing up, you’re going to say, I’m not going to do anything that my parents did, if that makes sense, right? I’m not going to do this to my kids. The funny thing is.. yes. Flash forward, in my mid forties, raising teens and a college kid. Yeah, there are some things I’ve adopted from my parents. So here’s what I say. Now I’m able to say this cause I’m middle-aged, but I do appreciate what my parents did to instill those really strong Korean values. Like I’m working hard, right. Or really doing your best. Now there’s a fine line between achieving success, being success-driven and achievement-driven, and your emotions, right? So the emotional part is where probably what we’ll tackle today, that isn’t being met for a lot of second generation children. But I want to say now.. If you’d asked me this maybe 20 years ago, maybe not so much, I wouldn’t been as positive. I think this comes with age, maybe more understanding wisdom, from raising your own kids, that I have come to appreciate. Plus, if I say that I don’t appreciate the way my parents raised me, then I’m almost saying I’m not appreciating myself, right? I want to say that I’m happy with myself and actually my parents have a lot to do with that. So I do share a lot with other second generation families. Hey listen, don’t be so “Anti-Korean” and your parents because you’re almost saying to yourself, I don’t like myself— which some of them don’t because they’re trying to relate, they don’t relate to the culture. But it’s very important for molding your mental health and well-being to accept part of the culture that you may not like. And that’s where I think I got to that point. But obviously I’m older so I can say that. And that comes over time.

Abraham Kim
I’m interested in how you grew up under a traditional family and then you went to college and you chose journalism as your career. How did you come about that decision?

Jeanie Chang
That’s a great question cause I have to say my father’s a neurologist, so doctor. And you know, the whole, “Oh, you’re going to be a doctor or a lawyer” thing. My entire extended family. I’m proud to say this now, but growing up, but yeah, I grew up in a family of physicians. So you can imagine the pressure I felt, but I will say this is how my father shaped my life. To his credit, I think he saw early on that I didn’t really have a pension for medicine, you know, and I preferred speaking: public speaking, being in front of people. I did well in spelling bees, so I was really good at writing. So actually when I said, when people ask, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” I remember saying this in third grade, I don’t know how it came into my head, but I said, I want to be an anchor woman and I want to be on television and I want to be the number one anchorwoman. And I did say, I want to be, you know, proud of being Korean. I remember saying this! And I remember, this is very critical that my dad said this, He goes, “Okay, good. Okay, then you’d be the number one”. Right? Cause I said, number one. So it’s all about being the best. But, he did actually encourage it. So, I think from third grade on, I did everything school-wise, extracurricular activities, aside from the music. I really went toward the broadcast journalism route and I did major in that at NYU, despite the family of doctors. But I was proud of that and that’s actually how I began my career. And I think again, credit to my dad for encouraging instead of discouraging. So that’s where he was a little bit more progressive, I think.

Abraham Kim
So how did your Korean American identity shape your career in journalism. Your first job out was at the AP?

Jeanie Chang
No, the first job was at WRAL here in the DC area. I was with them and I did the morning news. Now first of all, how it’s shaped is that I was one of the only Asian Americans, I want to say, during the time I started. Yes. But you know what it was? I think somewhere along the way where my parents did something right, despite me disliking part of my culture a lot was the fact that I kept saying I’m going to be the number one Asian American anchor. Connie Chung was a great example. So she was kind of my mentor and role model, but I wanted to beat her. But anyways, I think for me, when I was in DC covering mainly the Clinton campaign, I moved from WRAL to the Associated Press, I think because me being Korean American, I did stand out as well. And here’s a funny fact, you look younger when you’re Asian. I know we have that Asian “youngness.” I would resent when people thought I was a high school student or college student because of the way I looked. But I think even being that, even looking young, which us Asians should appreciate. I resented that too when I was a journalist cause a lot of people would talk down to me thinking, “Oh, you’re a high school student.” I go, “No, I’m not. I’m a reporter here covering President Clinton’s parade into town.” But that’s not so much not shaping my journalism career. What really shaped it was actually, being driven to bring Asian Americans into media, which I didn’t see a lot. Now you’re seeing more, but even then there’s not enough, right? So hopefully I answered your question.

Abraham Kim
But you chose to go from journalism to marketing after that.

Jeanie Chang
Yes, I know. So that interesting story is why I chose to leave the field of journalism. At the time, and I think back then I didn’t know that I was practicing a form of mindfulness, but I was unhappy when I left the workforce. Meaning I was very happy when I was doing my job in the Associated Press. It was crazy covering, you remember the whole Clinton scandal? Yeah, I covered that. Very exciting. But once I left to go back home, I felt a void. And I think it’s because why my life was so busy. When you’re a journalist, you’re there 24/7, they do pay you well. It’s a very lucrative career. But that’s because you’re working all the time. So by the time I left the office, I’d be like, “Okay, who do I.. I haven’t talked to this person a long time.” So I felt lonely a lot. Thank goodness for my then boyfriend, who is now my husband. But when we made the decision to get married, I had to look at my life 10 years in the future, since I’m a planner and I saw myself actually unhappy doing this. The work that I was doing and as a journalist. I loved what I did, but I wanted more as a whole life, like a holistic picture of my life. Not just work because when it just becomes about work, I’ll tell you now as I treat a lot of professionals, it’s not enough. Right? If you’re unhappy leaving work, you want more. It’s all about your relationships. And at that time I was missing so much. I was only in my mid-twenties and I think I remember feeling much older because I was burned out. And then losing some friendships cause I didn’t have time for people. So I made the choice. I left the field. The last thing I did actually before I left was I interviewed Snoop Dogg. I would share about that. Hey, I was about to go into entertainment television, but I interviewed him and then I decided what’s the typical Asian thing to do? Hm, okay, I’ll go to grad school cause it’s good to get a higher degree. And I decided to go to business school.

Jeanie Chang
I’ll be honest, more because of prestige, nothing cause I was passionate about it. So when I applied, actually I went into the MBA program initially at Johns Hopkins, cause I was here and then I was miserable. Like the first class I took was accounting and finance and stuff like that, right? And I thought, “I’m not going to use an MBA. I just did it for the prestige and the reputation because it’s the Asian thing to do.” But at the time, this is what saved me, Johns Hopkins was launching a new marketing program. So I decided to transfer into that. So I was one of the first cohort to be part of that new marketing program that’s well underway now. But back in the 90s, it was brand new and I focused on marketing, so business marketing and that’s very different. It’s about communications. Totally fit me. So that’s how I ended up there.

Abraham Kim
But did you do marketing after that or—

Jeanie Chang
So yes, I ended up working in marketing for a little bit. But I will share, cause I went through grad school again, that I actually cried my way through graduate school, from business school, because I overall didn’t like— I knew that I shouldn’t have been there. Marketing is still business, right? So you’re about promoting and products and all this stuff and I still had to do so many, you know, economics courses. A lot of work in the business field. And I realized why I don’t belong in the business field. But again, I started, I wanted to finish it. I was halfway in when I realized, “Oh my gosh, am I going to use this degree?” But I will tell you now that I am using this degree and I can tell you more later. So yes. I finished the marketing degree and that I ended up moving to North Carolina, which is where I am now. But yes, I was a part-time marketing consultant for some time.

Abraham Kim
So tell me that transition— yet that wasn’t the end of your career journey. Then you moved to family counseling and became a marriage therapist as well. I mean, what was the trigger for that?

Jeanie Chang
Yeah, so that is a huge part of my story. My mental well-being depended on me trying to find a purpose in life. So we moved to North Carolina in my early thirties, and at the time I was like, “Do I want to do marketing for the rest of my life?” Cause I knew that I eventually want to go back full time into the workforce. I had been raising three kids at the time, expecting a fourth. So busy family life, and I didn’t let that stop me, but I thought I’m too young in my early thirties to be this unhappy with this field and just be doing it because I got a degree in it. So I think it really came to me, it was like a calling in the middle of the night. Literally my fourth child was entering preschool and it just came to me, you know what, Jeanie, go into counseling. Because I would do it for fun on the side. I would help people, right? I was attending a church. I was always that “go-to” cause I was raising multiple kids. “How are you doing this? How can I get help on this?” And believe it or not, it relates to my love for journalism.

Jeanie Chang
So when I was a reporter, I loved hearing people’s stories. I’d be out on the streets hearing about some great stories and I get to report on them. But as a reporter, that’s all you could do. You report on the facts and share the news— you can’t give your opinions, right? You can’t show your biases or anything like that. And as a therapist you tried to do the same. But as a therapist, I can at least provide some insight, feedback on what can change, what they can do better, when I hear their story. So I feel like I’m doing what I loved about journalism: hearing from people, learning about people, and getting to be part of their story and their life. But I also get to help them. So I feel like I say it’s my calling cause it really came to me in the middle of the night. In mental health, you have licensed clinical social workers, you have licensed professional counselors, psychologists,. Specifically what came to my mind was honestly marriage and family therapy. Because at that point in my life, you know, married raising kids— very embroiled and family and I have what I believe are core family values. So that’s just a natural progression. So I went back to grad school, much to my husband’s chagrin, and he’s like, “Are you serious?” I said, “Yeah, I’m going back to school.” and much to my parents chagrin. So they went, “What do you mean?” They’re like, “What? What’s therapy?”

Jeanie Chang
And this is a well-educated family. My father’s a doctor and still went, “I don’t understand, what’s that field?” I go, “You’re kidding, right? This is mental health. You are a doctor, you treat people who have brain injuries or whatever. But then, you know it’s all emotional and spiritual and all the things with their healing.” He said, “Yes, I understand that, but what are you going to do?” He goes, “I don’t understand how you can have a field in this.” But by then, I was in my thirties and I went through grad school myself and I didn’t really need their approval per se, but I did want it. But what, 15 years later, my father has come to understand what it is mainly because the medical field is also moving in that direction.

Jeanie Chang
But also I’ve spoken to him over the years and do you know, and he loved when I shared this, psychotherapy, the field I’m in originated from neurology, which is the field of my father’s in. And he was like, “You know what? That makes sense.” Cause it’s all part of the brain, our mental wellbeing. So anyways, yes, I went to grad school and here I am today. And I do feel like this is the work I should be doing and specifically helping Asian American families, right?

Abraham Kim
So it took you more than 30 years to finally reach—

Jeanie Chang
It did take me 33 years, yeah. But that’s okay. And so to youth and young professionals, I do say sometimes you think you’re meant for a field and life changes you. So be mindful of that. Be intentional in your life of accepting things that come your way cause they may be meant to be. So I’m glad I’m here today talking to you about this.

Abraham Kim
So how has being in counseling shaped your own family life in your own experience? Cause you’re raising your own kids?

Jeanie Chang
Yes, that’s a great question. I will say having my own family makes me a better therapist and vice versa. So I’m raising four kids. I’ll be married for 22 years come April and four kids ages 19 to 13. So 19, 17, 15, 13. Yeah, every two years. Yes, we’re crazy, no. So raising four kids, teenagers especially, is very difficult. So I’m not gonna deny that parenting is difficult. I mean, even my own kids. When I’m treating teenagers in the therapy room, it’s very different than talking to your own kids. But how it shaped me or influenced me, I will say I’m much more tolerant of the bigger picture. Meaning, and this is I tell parents, pick the right battles. Because growing up I remember fighting a lot with my mom about certain things. Now I would say I look at the overall picture of “are they happy, doing well?” And I know that sounds cheesy, but the truth is you want happy families, right? And you want happier kids. You’re seeing less of that cause there’s so much more stress. So how it shaped me is that I am able to have a broader perspective of what matters. Honestly, even Harvard did a study on this, the key to happiness. They thought, “Oh, it’s achievements or you know, finances. What do you think it is?” No, it’s not right. It’s the quality of your relationships. And Harvard is still doing this study. So going back to that, when I quote that, I’m saying in the end, I want to look for quality family.

Jeanie Chang
Yes, we all have our problems and we all have our struggles. People think, “Oh, it’s your perfect.” Heck no. But I also think I’m a better parent because I’m seeing greater issues out there. You get more appreciative when you’re treating kids that have attempted suicide or cutting themselves and you say, “Okay, my kids aren’t doing that.” So you, there’s a lot of gratitude involved too. And patience. I will say because I’m a therapist, I’m more patient than I was 10 years ago. Because again, it’s about having the bigger picture in mind.

Abraham Kim
So in terms of the bigger picture, what do you mean by that? Would there be different, bigger pictures for different families? The word happiness is such an ambiguous term as well. And sometimes quite frankly, raising teenage kids, they’d be happy eating Dorito chips on the couch watching Netflix all day. And as a parent, sure in their definition, that’s happiness for me.

Jeanie Chang
Yes, I agree with you. Yes, definitely. So I’ll clarify. The broader picture I think should be the same, meaning are your kids doing well in what they’re supposed to do, but be reasonable with your expectations. And for me to say this, cause this is the joke in our family and the fact that my sister calls me Tiger Mom 2.0. Here’s the thing, now I somewhat embrace that title, not because I want to be the typical tiger mom where it’s all about success, like all work and no play. Not at all. But I’m talking about this because the broader picture is who I am today is a second generation Korean American molded by my parents’ upbringing in the way they raised me. And I say Tiger Mom 2.0 because I also liked some of the aspects of our culture where we push our kids, right? It’s all in a balance.

Jeanie Chang
And that’s actually another aspect of mindfulness. It’s about moderation. So sometimes with Netflix, I mean, there are times I want to throw my kid’s phone out the window. So trust me, I also Netflix. So actually one time my son said, this is what hit me, when he goes, “Mom, can I just have a break? Sometimes I just watch Netflix for a break” and I think he was watching Friends or something that I liked watching. I went, “You’re watching Friends? Okay, you’re old enough, you’re 17.” But when he said that to me, I go, “You’re right. You know what, I recall feeling stressed out a lot in my own childhood. Not because I didn’t have loving parents, but everything was about doing and being the best and I didn’t get to go to birthday parties or have fun.” When my kids said, “I just need a break” and that’s what I’m doing. When I said, “What are you doing right now? You should be doing homework.” He goes, “No, I’m actually done. I have to study, but I want a break.” So I’m talking about this because I think the broader picture is the balance that I want to give my kids is a happy childhood. Happy is the only thing I can think of. But don’t forget as parents we can call the shots and what we value to be happiness. Yes. I don’t want them to be eating Doritos, but I also want to know that he also works hard. Well, Doritos, some Doritos are okay. He works hard, but to understand that everything’s a balance, right? Not all work and no play, but I think work and more play. Does that make sense?

Abraham Kim
Yes. Yes it does. In fact, going more broadly into the work that you’re doing today, and you’re working with a lot of Asian American families and Korean American families too, I’m curious. Today, how are Korean American families in your work addressing mental health? Or are they at all addressing these issues?

Jeanie Chang
So, and honestly speaking, in my practice, 60% are Asian Americans and the other 40% are other ethnicities. But of that 60%, one or two are Korean Americans. Now that’s actually in my clinical practice, but I’ve done workshops for Korean churches and stuff like that, so that’s different but I feel like I’m still treating them. But I will say Korean Americans, and maybe I can be blunt about this cause I am a Korean American. I feel like they’re the toughest to break through, maybe cause I want to work so hard in breaking through them. Cause I am a Korean American and I want so much to help my own race and my community. But generally speaking, I don’t see them as much. But I think it’s growing. More and more people are talking about it, but generally speaking, I would say Chinese Americans have been the most open in coming to therapy. And I’m even doing a parenting course for a Chinese school. I hope that someday translates to a Korean school, right? I’m always trying to help my community.

Abraham Kim
So what are the cultural hurdles or what are the value systems that are preventing you think Korean Americans to seek out mental health?

Jeanie Chang
You know, that is a really good question. I do my own analysis and I think about myself. I think I want to say we’re progressive in many ways in our fields. We’re very successful. A lot of Korean Americans, I find, are maybe more in the.. white collar’s probably not the right word, but they’re very doing well in their fields. But here’s the thing, They choose to stay busy in those fields so they won’t be educated or mindful of seeing the broader picture of what’s going on in their families. So I will say they’re a little more narrow-minded. I hate saying that word, but again, this is my own experience, and I can say this cause I’m also Korean American, but I find that they don’t like to sit down for a moment and think about other things that also make them successful, like families, right? And I will say I see some dysfunction when that happens, when things are hidden. You know the whole “saving-face” concept, very Asian.

Abraham Kim
Well what kind of dysfunction?

Jeanie Chang
So it trickles. Anxiety is contagious. It’s almost like a disease, a virus. So a classic example of what I mean by that, cause sometimes people need a picture, is: when you’re home, let’s just say Abe, you come home and you’re already home and you’re washing dishes and then you hear your kids walk through the door. They slam the door and throw their books out and they give this big sigh. And without even looking at them, you already know, “Oh, something’s wrong.” That’s what I mean by anxiety being contagious. The anxious mood or stress going, “Oh, what’s wrong with my kids?” It already translated to you just by hearing the way they came in.

Jeanie Chang
So that said, in a Korean family that dysfunction happens when one person, all you need is one person to be experiencing something, anxiety, depression, whatever it is, not it just mental health, something stressful. And it will translate to the family, trickle throughout. But what happens is they don’t share it. It’s the whole “saving face” concept that happens a lot of Asian American families, the most, from what I find, in Korean Americans, “Oh, okay, this is not good. We keep it to ourselves. Our kid is doing this. He got in trouble. We won’t tell anybody, not even our parents.” The classic example is: I didn’t know my mom, my own mother, has knee issues and I didn’t know she had surgery. They don’t tell you this stuff. That’s not kind of hiding a mental health problem per se, but the stress that she might’ve gone through, it kind of slipped.

Jeanie Chang
I’m like, “Did you just say you had surgery?” She’s like, “Oh yeah, I’m good now.” But what I’m saying is even hiding that from your own daughter, now we’re not local, we don’t live in the same area but still. I was frustrated. What’s wrong with sharing some of that burden? Now it makes sense why my mom was stressed out and I felt it and I didn’t want to talk to her during that time. Does that make sense? So that’s what I mean by dysfunction. It can translate, trickle to the kids. Then the kids go to school stressed out and then you have this whole— and dysfunction, you can still function well. But eventually it leads to chronic stress and then something chronic happens and something blows up. And that’s usually when they come see me and that’s when I don’t want to see you cause I’m like, “You could have prevented this. Sharing this, getting help sooner.” But yes, that’s just been my data with Korean American families. And maybe people refute that, but that’s what I’m finding.

Abraham Kim
Do you find maybe there’s some generational differences. Like for example, first-generation families dealing with these issues differently from, say, second generation families?

Jeanie Chang
Oh, definitely. You mean—

Abraham Kim
Yeah, on mental health and how they they’re dealing with it.

Jeanie Chang
Of course. So second generation, they’re better, right? They’re more open and more vulnerable about things that are going on. But still there is a wall. And I feel it even when I talk to other families. Why? Because of my field. Already they see me and they don’t see me as Jeanie Chang, friend or they see me as Jeanie Chang, therapist. She might say something and I trust you. I mean, please believe me. I do not analyze. I just want to like hang out. But all of a sudden they’re like, “Yeah, so this is what happened. Okay. But no, we’re okay.” And I’m like thinking, “Okay, calm down. I’m sure you’re okay.” But what I mean by that is even amongst the second generation, there’s still a saving face concept. That’s the best word I can think of. But it’s worse than the first generation. But I will tell you, here’s to the first generation’s credit, the resilience that they endure to be immigrants. I feel like their resilience is an example that I wish we could follow. Not hiding things, not being so success driven that they can’t see beyond that. But just showing a little bit of the resilience and strength that I don’t see so much in the young and the youth today. And that’s a whole nother topic, but yeah, hopefully I answered that question.

Abraham Kim
Just kind of continuing along this conversation about second generation Korean American parents. I mean, what’s some of the biggest challenges you see as parents among the second generation community?

Jeanie Chang
Okay. I want to say it’s probably very similar to other race and ethnicities, right? But with parents especially, if teenagers, we are dealing with a lot now in this day and age. Stress is just on the rise and anxiety is on the rise and depression is on the rise and data shows that. And I wish I could say, and I actually laugh about it. It’s on the rise, but yet we have so many more resources than ever, right? We have more clinicians today. I think people more going into the field, Asian Americans, right? Going into the field. more things available, even technology available to help. Technology can also have its own vices. But generally speaking, with the second generation parent, my biggest job is education or informing them of what mental health is.

Jeanie Chang
And that sounds so one-on-one but even people my age in their forties see it as such a distant thing like, or they’re scared of it. A lot of it is because it’s fear-driven, going, “If I say that, I’m going to see Jeanie or if I want to talk about mental health, there is something wrong and I normalize it as best I can” Do you know that anxiety, depressed mood, not depression per se, but being depressed or feeling depressed. These are normal emotions. You should experience them at one point or another, right? Cause we’re human beings. So, and I also say anxiety is such a normal part of life. You actually need stress in your life to do well in school, right? Why are we stressed? Cause we want to be good professionals. Why are we stressed? Because I want to be a good student in school.

Jeanie Chang
So I say, “Hey, so that’s positive stress.” So that’s kind of what I do in my sessions to make people understand that mental health is exactly just those words. Your mental mind and your health. It does not mean you will be diagnosed with a mental illness like bipolar or schizophrenia. But that’s still the image of today and that does come with stigma, and not just Asian American mental health stigma, but stigma of generally across the board. Mental health is definitely moving in the right direction for sure, but so much education, which I’m constantly doing, people think I’m giving all these skills and treating and listening. A lot of my job is education, giving you the knowledge, because knowledge is powerful, to understand really what mental health is and mental health is when you lose a job and you’re stressed out because you don’t have enough finances to help your family— that is part of mental health. Does that make sense? And people actually think it’s not like that. They’re thinking I’m going to diagnose them with some disorder.

Abraham Kim
Well, I would think in some ways people, because it is your mind sometimes you don’t know your mental health is slipping, right? And in many ways it’s insidious, right? And with things like depression, you don’t go from like happy one day and then depressed the next hour. but in fact, maybe over a long period of time, you’re kind of sliding into unhealthy behavior in terms of your mental health. And so unless someone who knows you really well points it out, you, you find yourself not knowing that you’re slipping into that, right? And so I imagine that’s probably one of the difficult aspects of just admitting your mental health is deteriorating.

Jeanie Chang
Yeah. Depression is actually very difficult, I will say. Depression is very hard to treat but it’s very common. It’s probably the most common thing I see. But it’s very difficult on the family too, because they think, “Why can’t she just be happy?” Well don’t forget there’s a lot going on with the brain, right? Your brain is wired in a certain way when it’s going through that depression and there’s clinical depression, which is more of a chronic level or depression because of something you’re experiencing, right? And I guess I don’t know how much time we have, but just briefly, when I was treating a woman who was around my age, actually very recently, about two years ago, I diagnosed her with Major Depressive Disorder (MDD). Major depressive disorder just means you’re depressed.

Jeanie Chang
She was experiencing a lot of things going on in her life, but she had never experienced depression before. Successful business woman. And then it hit me, I went, wait a second. Cause during that time I was going through through some turmoil with my corporate position of a job that I would say was really toxic for me. And I decided, you know what? I actually think I’m suffering from it too. And depression is not like you’re going to go around looking morose and sad. It can look like that, but it also can result in irritability, frustration, complaining all the time, not doing the activities like you used to do. Not able to focus. It can look like that and people just think depressed looks like you’re just sad. Sad is a huge part of it, but there’s another flip side. And so I had the other side where I was irritable at the time and I just, I was treating someone else. I went, ding, ding, ding Jeanie, I need to look at myself. So I did take some time off to figure things out. And that’s because of the job situation I was in. But I’m bringing that up because it’s very much relatable to all of us, you know? And I do like, I, I know this cause I’m clinically trained to identify it, but I want other people to know what to do. So that’s what I mean by informing and educating a lot.

Abraham Kim
So if one does find themselves in depression, what are some steps that one can take to get out of it? Or can you get out of it by herself?

Jeanie Chang
That’s okay. And I have met some people who have approached me after some talks that I’ve done that have gotten out of it by themselves. And I will say, and I’m probably one of those examples, but I’m clinically trained so I kind of identified it and went, “Oh my gosh, Jeanie, let’s take a step back here.” But I will say you can treat yourself and you can identify it as long as you’re proactive to making sure on steps that you’re doing every day to combat that depression. And I will say still, you may need professional help later on cause guess what? The pattern can repeat itself, right? A lot of people want to, here’s a classic example. “I feel good now Jeanie. So I think you can discharge me. I’m feeling great.”

Jeanie Chang
And I’d be like, “You know what? I believe that you’ve been doing well, you’ve been feeling good, you’ve been doing all of these things again, you’re back into doing this stuff, etc.” But I say, please keep up the things we’ve discussed. And granted when they don’t, I will say they come back to see me like a year later. You know, it’s not necessarily me not doing my job, me just saying, “Hey, do remember these things that we worked on” “Yeah, no” Does that make sense? So I will say eventually it can creep up again on you and patterns can come up if it’s not proactively treated correctly the first time. If it is, what we’re talking about is depression. Don’t forget there’s also situational depressed mood because of hard situations. That’s not necessarily depression. You can go through that and that could be stress. So you have to experience symptoms for a prolonged amount of time. Actually, it only takes two weeks to be officially diagnosed. But I’m talking extreme levels of dysfunction. Like, I can’t do my job, I can’t function, I can’t sleep. And you know, I had to bring the statistic up, but suicide is on the rise and more needs to be done on addressing it. More professional help is needed for people dealing with depression.

Abraham Kim
Yeah, it’s an important topic that is impacting all parts of our community. In fact, I know some families that have been recently affected by suicide and as parents especially, you hear a lot about teenage suicide as well. And I’m wondering, how have you been approaching this with parents in your work, on the issue of suicide?

Jeanie Chang
So here’s the thing with suicide. The reason why it’s so shocking because first of all, it’s someone taking their own life. So that’s shocking in itself. Men, boys will do a little bit more, I would say graphic, that’s the word I could say. They’re a little bit more dramatic. Not to be so deep here, but they’ll shoot themselves, right? Women might do it a little bit more ambiguous. They’ll overdose on pills and stuff like that. That’s just what data shows and that’s the experience I’ve seen. Here’s what I say about suicide. I got into trauma actually because when I did my clinical internship, I saw a lot of different racial and ethnic backgrounds treating trauma differently. Especially in our Asian American culture, do you know that they feel like suicides is their only option? Because they can’t share and it’s very lonely. So a lot of what I address in families is when you’re feeling lonely, yes. You may feel so in despair that you don’t feel like anybody can relate and this is your only option. That’s why suicide’s on the rise in Korea, you know? But people who can think clearly on how they will take their life. One of the questions I ask, so I actually say specifically, “Do you have a plan on how you would, you know, kill yourself” and if I could get the answer of “Yeah, this is what I would do.” I’m like all right, ding, ding, ding. Alarming. But suicidal ideation, which is more common, which is the thought of contemplating, “My life is terrible. I might as well just not be here. I want to die, I want to kill myself.” So those are suicidal ideations. That’s more common.

Jeanie Chang
But what happens is suicide does not necessarily happen when you’ve hit rock bottom. I try to make that clear. People think it’s when you’re at the very lowest of low in your life. It is not, you have no sense of life at that point that you don’t even have energy to necessarily do that. What happens is when you come out of that, maybe right after, your mind becomes a little clearer going, “Well that time was terrible. I never want to go back to that time. I kinda got out of that and so here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to go grab a gun.” Does that make sense? So it actually happens when people least expect it, cause they just saw that person. They’re like, “I just saw he was happy he had just gotten out of rehab and doing well.” That’s usually when it happens. So it’s a scary thing for me to share, but it’s something to identify. When people go Jeanie, my son’s at rock bottom. I’m like, okay, but in my head I’m going, let’s watch what happens after. Yeah, so that’s kind of a dark topic there.

Abraham Kim
Yeah, no, it’s an important topic. And I’m wondering as parents how can we identify mental health issues, especially depression or suicidal thoughts in our kids.

Jeanie Chang
Yeah. And here’s the bottom line. You don’t have to ask these tough questions like, “Are you thinking of killing yourself?” I mean, that’s like a rough question to ask your kids. I told parents, you don’t need to go there. You don’t need to say, “Are you depressed? Are you anxious?” No, actually what it is: connect with your kids. Okay? So I actually say this to parents. Your child, they’re technically students, right, if they’re college kids and under. “Be a student of your student is what I say.” So learn from what your kids are doing to connect with them. So naturally they’ll feel connected to you and not lonely and things will come up easily. So what I’m trying to say is be very proactive so you don’t have to get to that point of let’s talk about suicide.

Jeanie Chang
No, I actually want to say connect with your kids on every level. Here’s an example. video games are very popular. I don’t necessarily like them either, but being a mother to boys, I have to understand them. Fortnight, when it was at the height, I think it’s kind of now gone away from that, every kid was playing that. A lot of boys. And I had parents saying, “I am so frustrated. He’s playing this, he’s playing this.” And this is an example of what I said to the parent. I’m like, “Okay, do even know what Fortnite is?” And I’m like, “Not really. I don’t care.” I’m like, “Well how about this? If you want to get your kid to do what he’s supposed to do, like study for SATs or do his chores and he’s not doing it and it’s like a fight every day. How are you connecting with them for him to even listen to you.” And then the parents are like, “What?” I go, “Why don’t you do this? I have tried this and it works. Sit next to them for like 10 minutes and be like, ‘Okay, so what’s going on here? You’re shooting this person. Fortnight, this person’s doing this funny dance. Whatever.'” I guarantee they’ll look at you going, “Okay mom, like why are you here?” But in that five or 10 minutes you’re connecting on their level of, as they’re explaining to you, annoyed cause you’re bothering them with the game, “Mom, this is what I’m doing. I’m going to try to get this and then go on to the next level.” Oh that’s interesting. Uhuh. Then you leave. Believe it or not, that connection is very simple, but it’s done.

Jeanie Chang
And then you’ll say, “Hey, by the way, remember you’re supposed to do the dishes cause I’m going to be going out to this work event, remember to do the dishes.” And at that moment you might be like, you might hear they’re annoyed, “Okay, gotcha.” But that what happens is the kid felt somewhat connected to the mom and a little bit of like understanding happens where he goes, well yeah, my mom just did this. I’m not saying he’s thinking all this. I’m saying there’s a connection there. So he’s more apt to do you know what you asked him to do. That’s a little trick, and I will say it works. And it’s grueling for the parent to sit there. But hey, if you start talking to your son, “Hey, tell me a little bit more about that whole show you did or that, that project, tell me about it.” And you actually sit and listen right after you have that conversation, go in for the kill and say, “Hey, by the way, I need you to study for SATs for an hour. “But it works because they connected with you. So what I’m trying to say is you don’t have to ask the tough questions. You just need to connect with your kids. And then you’ll be able to see when they’re, when they’re struggling, meaning even sitting down, when they start getting stressed with their own siblings and calling them stupid, I’ll just be like, “What’s going on?” He’s like, well he’s stupid. I go, “Well did he just, did he stress you out cause he messed you up studying.” “Yeah. It’s cause I need to study,” you know, things like that. You’re connecting with your kids and that will help them be able to express more with you what they’re struggling with.

Abraham Kim
And is this the same thing with daughters as well?

Jeanie Chang
Yes. Oh, daughters are a whole story. No. Daughters are much easier in the sense they’re pretty verbal. I mean they’ll share things with you. But I need you not to, not just you Abe, sorry. But just in general, problem-solving— sometimes girls don’t want that. Women want to be heard, right? And I’m not saying you sit there validating everything. “Okay. Yeah. That friend of yours, she sounds awful.” No, I’m not trying to endorse that kind of talk more like, “Wow. So what did she do again? Really? She said that to you? Yeah. I can’t believe someone would say, ‘You’re so stupid.'” Repeat what they’re saying even if you’re not giving any advice, okay? You’re connecting with them. And that’s actually a whole nother method. It’s called the OARS method where you’re actually asking open questions, giving them affirmations. You’re actually reflecting what they’re saying and then you’re summarizing what they’re saying.

Jeanie Chang
A lot of parents will miss the boat. I have family sessions and I get so excited when I see a kid go, especially Asian Americans, “Mon, I told you many times why I didn’t want to do that class. I wanted to do this class because I really loved graphic design.” The mom’s like, “No, you didn’t tell me like graphic design. You just said you didn’t want to do advanced math.” He’s like, “Yes, I did tell you, remember?” And they’re missing the boat. So that’s what I mean by the connection being very important so the kid feels less stressed. So girls, yeah, girls are I would say they’re easier to deal with. But again, summarize what they’re saying. When they’re in their dramatic mode, be like, “Wait, so what’s you’re saying is that mom did this and then this happened and then you got mad and that’s why this happened.” “Yeah, that’s what I told you.” You’re like, okay, that’s all you need. And guess what happens? More conversation will build from that. So that’s a little trick there.

Abraham Kim
Then dads would do the same.

Jeanie Chang
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. I’m talking to you, yes. That’s what dads do. Yes, it’s very important actually for dads to do that, especially with their daughters.

Abraham Kim
Well, I want to come back to this question of suicide. I think there’s a lot of interesting aspects of this and we had a previous conversation about the impact of, for example, when you hear about us suicide happened in the school and maybe it was a friend or a distant, you know, maybe a student from another grade completely. But that’s still has impact on the kids and the kids in the school. Explain that.

Jeanie Chang
Definitely. so that would be like secondary trauma. Trauma, it’s very interesting. People think you have to experience it like yourself, like live it, to actually feel trauma or be traumatized. Not at all. I mean, secondary trauma is just as powerful when a kid hears about it, even if they don’t even know the kid, they will be like, “Wait, he’s my age.” Kids can find ways to relate, right? That’s what’s so important about peer support. They will feel, and especially if they know the child who killed themselves or something happened to them. Oh, it can be a huge deal. And that’s why schools, I will credit them, they’re getting better at sending in crisis counselors to address it immediately. But secondary trauma is living the trauma like you lived it yourself, like you actually experienced it, but you actually didn’t. Do you know that you can even be traumatized when someone telling you a story.

Jeanie Chang
So that is why I tell parents, “Hey, watch what your kids are watching too, even on Netflix.” So the 13 Reasons Why was a big deal. So I had to make sure I watched it because a lot of my teen clients were coming in, including my kids, watching it. So I want to make sure that I had a sense. And I just said, okay, you know, technically it’s hitting the right spots. But I would also talk to them about it being like, “Hey, did that, did that kind of stress you out? Or how’d you feel when you saw the very end scene right, when she slit her wrist and there was like a pool of blood?” They were like, “Yeah that bothered me for a while.” But as long as they’re openly talking about it, that helps with the secondary trauma. But I watch a lot for secondary trauma. It’s like a hidden trauma.

Jeanie Chang
A kid will tell you a story and you’re realizing, wait a second, they’re actually very traumatized by something that happened to somebody else and they heard about it because they’re relating it to their own mom, like their own mom’s death. And so I do talk about that a lot, hopefully answered your question. I’m trying to figure out, oh, it’s suicide. Here’s another secondary trauma. It’s nothing related to us, but the recent K-pop deaths. A lot of college students have actually said it’s hitting them and some of these are Chinese American, Taiwanese American, not necessarily Korean, but they all read up on K-pop and they heard about it and it really triggered them. So my question is not like, “Why is it triggering you?” I’m like, you know, I’m understanding that they’re being traumatized.

Jeanie Chang
They might relate. They’re relating actually because what Goo Hara or Sulli, the things that they shared with depression and being bullied, perhaps they also experienced that or they see that happening. So that’s why even a suicide of a celebrity hits close to home.

Abraham Kim
So is that just for suicide or is that also perhaps for a death of another friend that was maybe in a car accident, for example?

Jeanie Chang
Everything, you’re right. It’s not just suicide, you’re right. It’s any kind of traumatic event that a kid internalizes and can almost feel traumatized even if they weren’t in that actual event themselves. Here’s an example, cause everything’s relatable, right? I think I heard about recent, when you hear about the volcanoes. There was a volcano that erupted in New Zealand, I think some Americans died in that or were badly injured.

Jeanie Chang
To me, I thought, “Oh, that’s tragic. That’s kind of scary.” But my niece and nephew just came from New Zealand and their in-laws lived there. So they were traumatized going, “Wait a second, we were just there. How are the in-laws,” even though they were nowhere near that part of the country, but I could tell their trauma a little bit of like hearing about a big thing, people getting burned unexpected on a tour visit and they related somehow. Well, yeah, because they have family there. So it can be anything that’s relatable, right? And anything and everything is relatable.

Abraham Kim
So the impact would be at the least they would feel troubled or perhaps it might trigger, some depression.

Jeanie Chang
Probably more anxiety and stress.

Abraham Kim
Anxiety and stress and stress. But in the worst case, in the case of maybe some of these like Goo Hara and Sulli, or maybe a friend committing suicide, they may start to ideate suicide and then that may lead to other even worse situations of carrying it out as a copycat or something like that.

Jeanie Chang
That’s very interesting you bring that up cause I know a lot of parents get scared about that. Right? The copycat issue. I will say in my experience, and I’m sensitive about saying this, I’m not saying don’t be too concerned with that as long as ,you know, you’re staying in tune with your family and connecting. But a lot of people are not necessarily copy cats. So with Goo Hara, yeah, I think the copycat kind of happened there, I want to say. I feel like that right. That’s the word? I don’t think that’s so much more in common now. I think that people are talking about suicide as like the copycat issue like, “Well she is talking about it. So I’m going to talk about it.” But actually following through with the act, I wouldn’t necessarily say there’s a copycat risk, if that makes sense.

Jeanie Chang
As every case is unique, every situation is unique. Sometimes people want to talk about suicide because it’s the thing to talk about, does that make sense? At school, well, she’s talking about it. All right, I’ll join this conversation. But I caution parents from getting too stressed out saying, you know, this is what they’re talking about. What if my daughter gets ideas in her head that this is that she can do this? And I go, “Well the what-if is a classic example of an anxiety taking over, fear taking over, and we can’t live like that.” Right? So we have to kind of practice mindfulness in the moment of what’s going on with your daughter. Does she seem happy? And the answer might be “Yes she is. I guess I was just stressed out about her talking about suicide and what if she does it.” I go, “Well, if she’s not showing any signs of being depressed or anxious and just talking about it because it is a topic, I believe that’s okay.” So what-ifs is another scenario that I try to caution parents from. Because you can’t control the future and you go that way, you will get lost in that, right in that thought. It’s human nature. But again, I kind of bring them back. Hey, what’s going on now? What’s going on at the current moment?

Abraham Kim
So the best thing a parent could do is just to talk with their kids and connect and talk through—

Jeanie Chang
And talking is difficult. So here we go with the Asian culture, it is not easy, even for me, right? I grew up with non-talkative parents who, you know, they talked at me, not talked with me. So I think with parents, it takes practice to lecture less.Try to engage in conversation by asking these open-ended questions. When I say open-ended, not the answer should not be Yes or No. It should be things like “What made your day so bad?” Then they have to explain, “Well, it was really bad cause of this.” “Well how, how are things going in your math class after that math exam that you struggled with?” Things like that. Get them to explain more and connecting, I mean, that’s the best word I can think of, for them to be able to actually show you openly their struggles with whatever that is. And growing up, I could not do that. I will share, it was very difficult. it is very difficult for a second generation parents or families or kids or adults now to say, you know what, I could never tell my parents this. And I go, “You’re right. That’s part of the culture we grew up in, but we can change that. You know, we’ve gotten we’re more Americanized. We can bring that communicativeness back to our families.” So that’s usually my response to that, that they, they didn’t get to share that much.

Abraham Kim
Yeah, no, I feel like we can talk for another hour or so just about this topic. I want to bring this portion of our podcast to a close and in our next podcast, we’ll be talking with a more student focus on how students could address with stress and other things in their lives. But just to close out, what can an organization like CKA do to help. Help parents or help the community to either create awareness or address some of these issues?

Jeanie Chang
Well, I already feel like you are helping, hopefully people will listen to this podcast, right? And the fact that at the Empower Summit we had a whole series on mental health. So it’s all about community. And I felt like even myself in my own field in North Carolina, I was pioneering it down there. And I love the fact that when I connected through CKA that I’ve met other Korean Americans, clinicians in the field of psychology. So I would say promoting it, addressing it like this, your podcast. Even perhaps we have a consistent, like I don’t know if you guys do webinars, but education is key. Remember, I’m always about teaching, informing parents, informing professionals, informing students on the latest trends. And I myself, because I have a license, I have to report to the state board. We’re required to do training each year. So I want to say we try to do trendy trainings. So there’s always these different things happening in the field of psychology, because society is changing, right? So I think as long as CKA gives us an outlet to provide that information to the Korean American community, then it’s a star. Because this is something that I wanted to do and even talking about this is huge.

Abraham Kim
Well, thank you for your time, Jeanie, as well as your insights and I hope a lot of parents are listening out there.

Jeanie Chang
Thank you so much! I hope so too.

Abraham Kim
I hope you enjoyed this interview with Jeanie Chang. This is a good reminder for all of us who are parents to connect with our families, our children and the friends around us. Our community’s strength depends on people caring and supporting one another. Be intentional and mindful in your interactions with your family, friends, and your coworkers. You never know what somebody is going through unless you ask and listen.
Thank you again for listening to this episode of our second season of the Korean American Perspectives. Again, this is only part one of our podcast with Jeanie. We actually have a second part next week, and we’ll be talking on issues of burnout, intergenerational stress, cultural trauma, mediation, and more.
If you don’t want to miss out on that episode, please subscribe to our podcast and visit our website at councilka.org for more interviews, show notes, and more.
Thank you again and hope you tune in next time for the Korean American Perspectives.