Abraham Kim
Welcome to the Korean American Perspectives. My name is Abraham Kim. I’m here with my co-host Jessica Lee. How are you Jessica?

Jessica Lee
Good. Thank you Abe.

Abraham Kim
We have a wonderful interview today with Duyeon Kim, who is one of our members at CKA. She has really made a name for herself as being a leading thought leader on helping the general public understand about the current situation on the Korean peninsula. She is currently an adjunct senior fellow at the Center for New American Security (CNAS) as well as a columnist for the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. But I’ve seen her probably a whole lot on CNN as she recently had the Hanoi summit and the various other summits between President Trump as well as Chairman Kim Jong Un. But I think from a more personal standpoint, what’s interesting is that she’s a Korean American was born here in the United States, but went back to Korea at a young age and worked both in the Korean context as well as the U.S. context. We’re up for a very fascinating interview.

Jessica Lee
Yes. This interview was conducted last month here in Washington during Duyeon’s visit. So some of the things that we commented on may not be as topical, but definitely I think the overall issue of U.S. Policy towards East Asia and North Korea really took center stage during our conversation, given her expertise and our interest here at CKA. And I think Duyeon’s comment towards the end about encouraging Korean Americans to speak up and to engage our elected officials about our thoughts on this issue, I thought, was particularly powerful. So without further ado, we will turn to the interview now.

My name is Jessica Lee and I’m Senior Director at the Council of Korean Americans. And I’m your host of CKA’s podcast, Korean American Perspectives. Today I’m pleased to be joined by Duyeon Kim, an Adjunct Senior Fellow at the Center for New American Security, a columnist at the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists and a Visiting Senior Research Fellow at the Korean Peninsula Future Forum in Seoul. She is also an Associate Member of CKA. So Duyeon, it’s great to see you here in Washington. Thanks for joining us.

Duyeon Kim
Thanks for having me.

Jessica Lee Great. I know many of our listeners have read your analyses and your commentaries in the media and so it’s great to also see a side of you that most of us don’t get to see, which is who you are, where you studied and what inspired you to pursue this career in international relations and national security. So first I thought I’d ask, tell us a little bit about your upbringing, where you grew up. I know you went to Syracuse University and Georgetown University and have done a lot of academic work here in the States. So can you tell us about your journey to this field?

Duyeon Kim
Oh that’s a long story. So I was born in the U.S. and my family moved back to Korea when I was around seven or eight years old. I kind of did the reverse of what most Korean Americans do. So I grew up in Seoul and for college, I came back to the States, went back to Seoul again for my first career, and then came back to the States for graduate school and I started working in Washington. And now I’m back in Seoul and I’m literally split half and half by now.

Jessica Lee
Tell us why did you decide that this was something that you wanted to pursue. And this interest in international affairs and security issues, did that come to you when you were a student or as you worked and were out in the field reporting?

Duyeon Kim
Yeah, I hate to disappoint you but the work that I’m doing now just kind of happened. I didn’t plan or strategize to end up where I am now. I know that might sound really disappointing,

Jessica Lee
[Laughter] So no strategy.

Duyeon Kim
No strategy in life. I was always interested in international relations, world affairs, but I never really planned on doing this— I never imagined that I would. I always wanted to help people. Give back. To do something helpful in the world. And at a young age in college, or actually even before college when I was growing up since middle school and high school, the way I wanted to help —and I don’t want to sound cliché— was through medicine. I know that sounds like your stereotypical Korean American job and vision, but I specifically was interested in surgery. And so I thought that that was going to be my destiny, but I did horribly in college. I was pre-med and English so I was dual major and I did English and Literature.

But I did horribly in what we call “Orgo”, which is organic chemistry. But I always had this itch— this active itch in me to do. And so after college I thought, you know what, let’s just do something very active and sign up with a job — it didn’t matter what it was — for a year or two, and then get my act together and apply to med school, even though I probably didn’t have a good chance anyway cause I did so poorly in pre-med. And so it could be anything, and I stumbled into journalism. To cut a long story short, after college I was going to stay in the U.S. and work, but I went to Seoul, stumbled into journalism and that’s the other half of my interest right? I was an English major. So I always loved writing.

But I never in my wildest dreams that I’d be a TV journalist. Of all things I thought it’d be print, because I like to analyze. And so that just fell in my lap. And so I said, “Okay, it’s only one year or two max.” But I got thrown into my first year of employment. I was asked to— I jumped, I leaped a few, I guess, decades of my career— I was asked to be the correspondent of the Korean Unification Ministry. So about six months in, I was asked by my boss to do this. I was 21 and I was this big-headed, young, fearless person, and I said, “This is not smart strategy on the part of our company, even though it’s supposed to be an honor to be a correspondent at a major ministry. But this this is not good strategy because I am too young and everybody else there is like decades older than me and I’m supposed to butt heads with them and be able to just walk up to the minister and just ask all these questions.”

And he’s like, “that’s nice. Go do it.” And I said, “Okay, fine.” And so then six months later, I was asked to be Foreign Ministry Correspondent. And so I did both. And so I did that for the rest of my time as a journalist. And I was really grateful because I really had that interest and a curiosity about the world. But to actually witness things in the field, the way it worked, meaning just the way policy-making works, the way government works, the way international diplomacy, international relations work— especially the way negotiations work, that just fascinated me. And so I thought, “one more year, and then maybe I’ll go back to medical school. I’ll study and then apply.” But then years went by and I just thought, this is really fascinating. And it was fascinating because it was such a challenge to me. Because again, I never planned on it and I never thought I was really good at it or anything. So I think that is also what drove me to learn more. And then I just got hooked and I got so knee-deep into it that it grew on me. And so that was, I guess, the turning point.

And then I was really lucky again. I went to graduate school a bit late compared to others. My current mentor, he actually put the thought in my head: “Have you thought about studying international relations and not journalism for graduate school?” And so that was another challenge that was put forth to me. Several years later, I said, “Okay, yes. I’m now ready to go to graduate school.” And the thought was to marry my field experiences and knowledge with the books. And so that’s just kind of how it all began.

Jessica Lee
Baptism under fire. 21-year-old you at the highest levels of government. That’s fantastic. So there’s so much to talk about. But, I do want to spend just one more question on sort of the beginning stage of your career that you just described. Obviously looking back now, having spent almost two decades working on security issues with a focus on East Asia and your background in TV journalism is so fascinating. Looking back and reflecting on that time, like you said, where you were really thrown into a field that you knew little, but you really had to learn quickly. How has that helped you in your current positions to be thoughtful and to know where to find information?

Duyeon Kim
That’s a great question. I’m so grateful for my previous life as a journalist because one unique asset— and I use all the skills that I’ve learned then, I still use them now and they’re all applicable. They’re all transferrable— very surprisingly, as I never thought that would be the case. But I think I’m even more grateful just because the way the Korean media and the system there works is that if you were part of a Ministry press corps— and at that time it was highly exclusive. You’re either in it, or you’re not. And if you’re on the press corps covering the Foreign Ministry or covering the Unification Ministry, you’re in, which means you’ve got full access to anybody. I would have my own desk in the ministry.

And so I’m spending, back then it was a six-day work week in Korea. And so I’m spending six to seven days at the ministry just mingling and talking with government officials and it all spills over into lunch, then dinner and then drinks, because Koreans love to drink, and a lot of the discussions happen over drinks. And so because of that unique system there it’s not only a journalist covering straight news of what happens in the world or in your beats. It’s not just he said, she said in quotes, you really get the inside scoop. And this is what I meant by awhile ago when I said I learned about policy making and negotiation because you, you here from the center, I guess maybe it’s literally secondhand, but from the actual negotiators, from the actual policymakers and what goes on in their mind and how they think about these issues.

And interestingly — I thought it was just a given back then — but in hindsight I find that interesting that we, meaning journalists who are part of that press corps, and the policy makers would have such intimate discussions where we would bounce around ideas back and forth. And what is fascinating about that is that is exactly what we do in America, the Washington think tank community as analysts and experts — we have that relationship with policy makers. We’re the ones who do bounce around those ideas and give policy recommendations. And so in that sense, what I do now in think tank in terms of the skill sets is not much different from when I was doing what I had to do back as a journalist with a beat and part of an exclusive press corps.

And so that also means learning how to reach out to contacts, who to talk to. And one of the most important things is learning and knowing the ground rules and the rules of the road and learning how to protect your sources. Even now as experts and analysts and even professors we write, we publish publicly, we give media commentary and you really don’t want to burn your contacts and your sources. But at the same time, we being part of civil society, we want to play our role, too. So we’re not going to, of course no one’s going to be a government mouthpiece, so we’re going to play the checks and balances role, too. But also where credit is due, give them credit. But also push back and raise red flags if the government or any government is going in a direction that we don’t think is the right direction.

Jessica Lee
That’s really important. Were there any key lessons in the beginning stage of your career that really informed your understanding of how things work and operate? For me, I take my greatest lessons from mistakes that I’ve made and especially as a young person, I’ve made plenty of mistakes. I’ve really learned a lot about myself and my limitations and resiliency through those experiences. I was wondering if there was one particular lesson or experience that has really stayed with you since the beginning of your career.

Duyeon Kim
Well, having been thrown into a beat at such a young age it forces you to, I guess so-called grow up fast. And back then I was one of, I think, two or three female reporters on the press corps. Now it’s like half or even the majority in Korea. And being young, a woman covering security, South Korean foreign policy and all that. So you have to learn to be professional, smart, savvy, and you had to grow up really quickly and stay true to who you are, and have integrity. And, and to know that compared to other veteran journalists in the field, of course, I can’t compare. And so that motivated me to — like any job that’s given to you — to really study up and try to get as smart as you can, to learn your issue area as much as you can so that you can do your job.

Duyeon Kim
And so some of that, I feel like a lot of us go though that — whether you’re man or a woman — you go through some of that in life with, with whatever task is at hand. And I think, I think some of those lessons or experiences and some of those skills I’ve reflected back on that. And I’m really, I’m really grateful. I won’t deny that there were some struggles because of my circumstances. But you learn to persevere, you learn to press forward.

Jessica Lee
That’s great. Well, so I want to kind of shift gears now and talk about current affairs, your current positions, and your views on some of the most recent developments, particularly related to North Korea, given some of the interest within our membership and the public. Of course today we’re sitting here in Washington at a very surreal time with the sudden departure of the National Security Advisor John Bolton. And so I’d love to get your thoughts on that, but wanted to start off at the macro level of, what keeps you up at night? Knowing how you’ve been looking at this issue for quite some time and the region. And you come to DC regularly enough to know the dynamics. What at the end of the day really keeps you preoccupied in terms of key challenges when it comes to the North Korean nuclear issue?

Duyeon Kim
It’s ironic because on the one hand, these issues are extremely serious and important. But what’s ironic is on North Korea, the themes and the issues tend to repeat themselves for decades. And so there’s a lot less staying up at night or losing sleep. But that said, again, they are very concerning. And so what really concerns me when it comes to North Korea is any potential scenarios for miscalculation that might lead to inadvertent spiraling into a conflict. That’s what we were most concerned about during fire and fury in 2017, especially with a president like Trump. The other scenarios are — what really is concerning to me is the level of sophistication and how advanced North Korea’s nuclear weapons have gotten.

Duyeon Kim
And we never have imagined this could ever be. And I think part of that in hindsight was at the time the world and American policymakers underestimated North Korea’s ability. And now here we are. And so my concern going forward is that the North would be able to perfect their nuclear weapons so that they do have fully functioning and reliable nuclear weapons. And that is a scary scenario. So this is where diplomacy that is underway — there’ve been some ups and downs and a long pause for a while — and negotiations play a key role.

Jessica Lee
That’s all really interesting. I’d love to get your additional thoughts on where you left off, which is, since June with the historic meeting at Panmunjom we haven’t really seen, at least publicly, robust dialogue and high-level meetings taking place to come to an agreement between the United States and North Korea. Why do you think that is? Is that a combination of factors in the U.S. and North Korea or is there something in particular that’s causing this delay in progress?

Duyeon Kim
There are many factors at play here, but it’s ultimately, in no particular order, different negotiating styles. Part of it is North Korea. They like to stall and delay negotiations — draw them out as long as possible. Part of it is, early on before Singapore and at Singapore, realizing maybe we can get away with all this stuff. Maybe we can get Trump to side with us and agree on things that we want without his bureaucracy and the government liking what we want. And then in Hanoi realizing Trump isn’t as easy as we thought, but still trying to get at Trump and bypass the bureaucracy. And the other part is, in North Korea’s eyes, it’s pretty clear that they think that the U.S. is not being bold enough or creative enough.

Duyeon Kim
Whereas Washington things, especially under Trump administration, is extremely bold and creative right now, very unconventional. And so we’re seeing a situation where both sides want to so-called go big and go bold, but their definition of going big is very different. And so ultimately the aim of negotiations is to try to basically have a nuclear-free North Korea but at what cost? And so that’s where the bargaining, the price of the bargains come into play and that’s for the negotiators to figure out. But on North Korea’s side, if you were Kim, why wouldn’t you want to keep your nuclear arsenal and get as many economic benefits as possible? So we can imagine that’s their game plan, too. So you’ve got two sides operating on completely different playing fields, wanting different outcomes, and it’s a matter of, can you reach a compromise on anything? That’s the task at hand for the negotiator right now.

Jessica Lee
As an American with a unique vantage point in Seoul and Washington, I would love to hear your thoughts on, the state of U.S.-South Korea alliance. For me, speaking personally, it has been such a roller coaster of a ride the last two years of, of both the inter-Korean talks as well as U.S.-North Korea talks. And so can you share with our listeners where you think that stands in terms of the overall state of U.S.-South Korea relations? I know that’s a very big question that we can talk for an hour about. What things come to your mind in terms of how you think the relationship is, particularly with respect to dealing with North Korea?

Duyeon Kim
The U.S.-South Korea alliance is just like any alliance in any human relationship. They will ebb and flow. You’ll have some sticky points and you’ll have some great high points and some not so high points. But I think overall, despite all the ups and downs and hurdles that might have arisen over the decades and even under each administration, even this one, I think the alliance is still strong. And that’s clear, but it tends to get a little tricky sometimes depending on the issue that they’re dealing with and how they’re going to deal with the issues. And tying this to a previous question that you asked is, one other concern that I do have is Trump’s dismissal of our alliances. He doesn’t care about the alliance. He does not hide the fact, and he’s not ashamed to hide that fact.

Duyeon Kim
And so that does not help anyone. It’s not just with the Korea alliances, with all American alliances. So that is a concern. But just like any relationship, I do have, despite their differences that they might have, whether it’s ideologically or on strategy or on ultimate objectives, I do have faith in both governments and the bureaucracies to be able to work things out, to eventually get to a happy medium, to think more strategically and to be able to continue developing and upgrading the alliance. But there is one point that is unfortunate, which is yes, the North Korea issue is extremely important and that should be a priority, but at the same time, we’ve kind of regressed.

Duyeon Kim
So we went through about 10 years of previous administrations trying to upgrade and expand the alliance to beyond Korean Peninsula to tackle global issues. And that was called the “new frontiers issues.” But now Korean government now is much more preoccupied with inter-Korean issues and North Korea, more so than previous administrations. And so for me it’s a bit unfortunate. I wish we could continue to — despite the differences that they may have on North Korea and on other issues — focus on broader regional and global issues. And these include anything from energy security to fighting pandemic diseases to — there’s a range of other challenges in the world that they have been working on — but the working-level on those issues are basically twiddling their thumbs and waiting for directives.

Jessica Lee
This is not one of the questions that I had intended to ask, but your comments and your eloquent thought processes led me to another dimension of U.S. alliance in East Asia, which is Japan. The situation between South Korea and Japan looks very dire. So I wondered if you could share any analysis or thoughts on what you think is happening between those two countries. Obviously another very big question. But this seems to be an issue that is not as widely appreciated here in Washington as maybe it should be. And I think more people should be thinking about the ramifications of a collapse in relationship between South Korea and Japan and the impact on the United States’ national security interests in East Asia. So do you have any thoughts on that?

Duyeon Kim
So it certainly does not help that America’s two closest allies in the region are not getting along. But that’s also nothing new. And each time it’s a bit different but in the grand scheme of things South Korea-Japan relationship also ebbs and flows. And so it’s important that all three countries try to compartmentalize and to, on the one hand, whether you’re going to fight things out or what not, but on the other track to work and cooperate on issues that are of mutual interest and that is a mutual challenge like North Korea or other, whether it’s natural disasters or other issues. But that’s been a challenge this time. We’re seeing the Korea-Japan challenges spill into concerns like, will the three countries be able to cooperate on North Korea on their common challenge?

Duyeon Kim
And that still remains a question. There are a lot of concerns in Seoul that there would be consequences. And so. as you know very well, the Korea-Japan relationship is very complicated and complex and deeply rooted in history for all good reason. But we have seen South Korean governments handle the issues a little bit differently. And it’s just a matter of differences in ideology, too. And so we’ve seen certain governments be a bit more to compartmentalized and be able to cooperate on North Korea quietly without advertising and publicizing, whereas other administrations in South Korea have not been able to do that. And that’s what we’re dealing with right now. So I hope that whether it’s through quiet diplomacy with the U.S. facilitating, having quiet discussions, South Korea and Japan really need to find a solution and a way forward.

Jessica Lee
Do you think that unification of the two Koreas is possible within our lifetime, or are we poised for more of a permanent division between these two very different nations?

Duyeon Kim
Very realistically, it doesn’t seem like unification would happen in our lifetime, as much as people would want it. It’d be great to but the direction that we’re seeing, not just North Korea’s strategic objectors, but also we’re seeing different relationships in the region. It seems to be a highly unlikely. But the other factor, which is interesting, is more and more South Koreans of the younger generation are not interested. They don’t care about unification. And when I say younger, I’m talking about like the 20s, 30s, and younger college students. Their number one preoccupation, unlike the past, is not North Korea and not security but more of their day-to-day living and their personal financial prosperity. So there is a growing concern among that generation of South Korea having to shoulder the costs and consequences of an abrupt unification. And so in principle, I mean — I would love to see it happen, of course. But how unification happens and when it happens are going to be key.

Jessica Lee
My last question is on the role of Korean Americans in being thought partners, policymakers and leaders who help shape the future of the Korean Peninsula. Can you talk about what you’ve seen and are starting to see in terms of Korean Americans playing a bigger role in this space?

Duyeon Kim
I definitely think Korean Americans have a role to play — a very important rule to play — in the U.S. and globally. As you know, Korean Americans are in a very unique position to offer advice, suggestions and help in any way, whether it’s through policy recommendations or more tangibly through any type of humanitarian assistance, or if there is unification, having American business people and NGOs help on the ground. And so there’s, there’s a range of things I think Korean Americans can do to contribute. And Korean Americans with all the history and family history, with many having immigrated from Korea with relatives still in North Korea, even, I think have a role and should, if, they are so led to, to voice their opinions in the American national debates and to make sure that their congressional leaders, political leaders and their presidents know of the Korean American voice and what we want to see happen. And, and as you know very well, the North Korea issue is a very divisive issue, not just here but everywhere. Anyone working the issue, anyone living in Korea, the North Korea is a very divisive issue and it’s highly politicized and it’s split among political divides. But if we can have a discussion and agreement on principles and eventual outcomes — how we get there, that’s where it’s going to be divided. But it’s important to agree on the outcomes and basic principles. And I think that’s something where Korean Americans can really play a role here in the United States.

Jessica Lee
That’s great. I wish we had another hour to talk because we superficially touched a lot of these big picture questions and issues that are affecting us today. But I want to thank you, Duyeon, for being with us here in Washington. This was very enriching. This was Jessica Lee and Duyeon Kim who is Adjunct Senior Fellow at the Center for New American Security. And I read your long bio in the beginning — I’m afraid I’ll fumble if I say it again, and we may have to re-record everything.

Jessica Lee
This was wonderful and we look forward to having you back.

Duyeon Kim
Great.

Abraham Kim
What a sweeping interview of so many different issues. I think that’s one of the advantages of interviewing such a knowledgeable expert who knows about the entire region. I think you went from U.S.-Korea relations to South Korea-Japan relations to unification. And in particular, I thought it was pretty honest and frank, especially Duyeon’s view on reunification and whether it would happen or not. So thank you for that interview.

 Jessica Lee
Yes. And I think it’s really useful and important for our community to support and uplift voices within the Korean American community that are shaping American public discussions, such as national security. And I think Duyeon is playing an important role in that regard. I think it’s great to continue to highlight our leaders in the Korean American community through this podcast, which you can access on our website councilka.org, as well as download on it on iTunes, Google Play, and Spotify. So continue to tune in and please share your thoughts and responses to these episodes. We will see you next time. Thanks.